Author Topic: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS  (Read 5266 times)

Offline Vraciu

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Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2019, 09:15:24 AM »
After you quote Puma you can begin your reply with "Captain" as he recently retired as such from Southwest.

 :rolleyes:

Is this a putdown of Puma?

You have at least four people in this thread with Boeing/737 experience alone.  That's nothing to sneeze at.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2019, 09:32:53 AM by Vraciu »
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Offline Puma44

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Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2019, 09:30:10 AM »
look at me I can handle it in a simulator.  have asked have you ever experienced this "anomaly" in this type of plane.  not one here have said yes.


semp

Actually, the simulator is much harder to fly/control because it’s just that, a simulator. 

Since the grammar and  punctuation in your sentence is somewhat confusing, let’s assume you’re asking a question. The answer here is yes, plus numerous events where the autopilot, FMS, and/or auto throttles started the 737 going in a direction it was not commanded to.  As we commonly called it, “Dummy Down” the jet, as a first step.  In other words, deselect the system that was misbehaving and again, Private Pilot 101, fly the aircraft and maintain aircraft control.  Again, something neither crew in these two third world country flown 737s had the ability to do.

There are four basic steps that can be applied to any Non Normal situation.

    1.  Maintain aircraft control
    2.  Analyze the situation
    3.  Take the appropriate action
    4.  Maintain situational awareness.

If an honest and realistic evaluation is applied to the two 737 incidents in question, it is plainly obvious that none of these steps were considered.



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Offline Toad

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Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2019, 09:33:58 AM »
look at me I can handle it in a simulator.  have asked have you ever experienced this "anomaly" in this type of plane.  not one here have said yes.


semp

I have. I posted about it in the other thread. I was the F/O on the 737 with the AOA malfunction at unstick.

Both the Lion Air and the Ethiopian events started with a basic AOA malfunction.

Fly the jet.

But you're never going to "get it" because you simply have no basis for understanding these situations.

Thus, it's a waste of time trying to explain it to you.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2019, 09:35:29 AM »
I have. I posted about it in the other thread. I was the F/O on the 737 with the AOA malfunction at unstick.

Both the Lion Air and the Ethiopian events started with a basic AOA malfunction.

Fly the jet.

But you're never going to "get it" because you simply have no basis for understanding these situations.

Thus, it's a waste of time trying to explain it to you.



And with that, it is time to depart this thread (and I am hoping those who haven't weighed in yet spare themselves the effort).   I suggest all of us who know what we're talking about do the same.   Go enjoy the beautiful day.   As the old saying goes: Don't feed the trolls.

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Offline Busher

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Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2019, 09:42:52 AM »
I cannot believe this "turkey" keeps getting resurrected in this forum. As I said before, we seem to live in an era where people will believe what they want to believe in spite of education or evidence to the contrary. Greg Feith,s commentary was priceless but sadly not widely published and the drama of a killer airplane is so much more exciting than reading about gross incompetence in the cockpit.

It seems that one third-world Government Regulator realizes that pilot training is lacking:

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2018-11-20/indonesia-seeks-toughen-rules-contracting-foreign-pilots
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Offline Toad

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Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2019, 10:05:04 AM »
Good article Busher.

It is a problem and it won't be resolved any time soon.

Fact is there is a huge shortage of competent aviators. There is also a basic infrastructure problem that inhibits training a large number of pilots very quickly. There are just not enough simulators to get it done. Not to mention the expense. The for profit training companies get about $140 per second for training two pilots in a modern Level D sim.

The last time there was a HUGE demand for pilots right away was WW2. At the end of World War II, the Army Air Forces Training Command had graduated 250,000 pilots from its schools.

Now, perspective on training: The U.S. suffered 52,173 aircrew combat losses. But another 25,844 died in accidents. More than half of these died in the continental U.S. The U.S. lost 65,164 planes during the war, but only 22,948 in combat. There were 21,583 lost due to accidents in the U.S., and another 20,633 lost in accidents overseas.

So what's that tell you about where we are now? You need a "crash" program like WW2 pilot training to provide the number of pilots that will be needed.

Quote
Demand for air travel is growing so rapidly that 800,000 new pilots are expected to be needed over the next 20 years, according to Boeing’s latest forecast.

The biggest need is in the Asia-Pacific region, where an improving economy in China has resulted in more people booking flights.
https://www.cnbc.com/2019/06/17/boeing-ceo-says-global-pilot-shortage-is-one-of-the-biggest-challenges.html

The US in an all out effort trained 250,000 pilots in about 5 years. That size program might meet the demand in the Boeing forecast. I don't see that kind of training effort getting done. Even so, that kind of training program still only turns out low time aviators.

There's the problem, as evidenced by the WW2 training and non-combat losses.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2019, 11:05:51 AM »
It's a waste of time, guys.

And yes, I can personally attest to the low standards in Africa where pilots, maintenance, etc. etc. is concerned.   I've said it before and I'll say it again, it's not about the PEOPLE it's about the CULTURE.   

A safety culture is not something that spontaneously appears.  It has to be cultivated, nurtured, promoted, and requires buy-in from all involved.   Without those elements--among others--you may as well forget the whole concept.   But ultimately it has to be taught.   You can't know what you don't know.
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Offline Easyscor

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Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2019, 12:31:33 PM »
You have at least four people in this thread with Boeing/737 experience alone.  That's nothing to sneeze at.

That right there WAS my point. But my reply was directed that particular post.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2019, 12:46:13 PM »
That right there WAS my point. But my reply was directed that particular post.

Gotcha.   The eyerolling kinda' threw me off.  LOL    :cheers:
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Offline Toad

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Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2019, 01:08:34 PM »
annnnnnnd this just in from Forbes:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2019/12/19/pilot-of-doomed-amazon-air-flight-had-poor-training-record-seemed-confused-before-crash-ntsb-report-suggests/#6800b1d379cc

Quote
The NTSB says that the first officer failed proficiency evaluations during his training at Atlas Air, which operates Amazon Air flights, and at his prior job at Mesa Airlines. He also washed out of training at two other airlines, which he concealed when he applied for work at Atlas, claiming that he had been doing freelance real estate work and taking college classes during that period of time.

Sure...he failed a lot.....but we NEED more pilots!
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Vraciu

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Offline Ramesis

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Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2019, 04:03:59 PM »
Is this a putdown of Puma?

You have at least four people in this thread with Boeing/737 experience alone.  That's nothing to sneeze at.
Well that's what they claim... I don't believe anything I read on the net or this bbs  :devil

Oh and by the way... the preliminary reason for Boeings StarLiner (sic) not reaching its intended
orbit was the controlling s/w
« Last Edit: December 22, 2019, 04:06:51 PM by Ramesis »
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2019, 04:54:36 PM »
Well that's what they claim... I don't believe anything I read on the net or this bbs  :devil

Oh and by the way... the preliminary reason for Boeings StarLiner (sic) not reaching its intended
orbit was the controlling s/w

That's what happens when you depend on machines instead of well-trained men/women.
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Offline Busher

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Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2019, 06:37:31 PM »
annnnnnnd this just in from Forbes:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/jeremybogaisky/2019/12/19/pilot-of-doomed-amazon-air-flight-had-poor-training-record-seemed-confused-before-crash-ntsb-report-suggests/#6800b1d379cc

Sure...he failed a lot.....but we NEED more pilots!

Expletive deleted :rolleyes:

I saw the changes in aviation as my career progressed. I remember when I started my airline job as a wet-behind-the ears kid, there was a company policy fully supported by ALPA, that all new pilots must pass a "Captain potential assessment" within 2 years. It was a fair judgement based upon numerous check rides and the input of Captains we all flew with. We all knew that failure would result in termination. Admittedly brutal but keep in mind this was the early 1970s.

Over the next few decades, I watched that brutal approach to pilot staffing change to an attitude that promoted the belief that "anyone can be trained to do anything". Maybe that is the case (I would have always like to play the piano), but sadly as a both a line Captain and a Check Airman, I have encountered far too many pilots - especially in the last decade of my career - that might have done better as stock brokers.

I would like to have Puma44's input because I never had the opportunity to try military training. But given the stakes involved, I had always assumed there was no place for "good enough". Who would give a 50 million dollar fighter jet to some clown that might prang it before the fight even starts?

Flying airplanes is fun but its equally unforgiving. I don't claim to have the answer to the world-wide pilot shortage but turning out bodies in the interest of staffing ahead of quality is certainly going to result in a lot more splashed airplanes.
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: Why Boeing 737 Max production has stopped, and its more than MCAS
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2019, 07:33:30 PM »
Expletive deleted :rolleyes:

I saw the changes in aviation as my career progressed. I remember when I started my airline job as a wet-behind-the ears kid, there was a company policy fully supported by ALPA, that all new pilots must pass a "Captain potential assessment" within 2 years. It was a fair judgement based upon numerous check rides and the input of Captains we all flew with. We all knew that failure would result in termination. Admittedly brutal but keep in mind this was the early 1970s.

Over the next few decades, I watched that brutal approach to pilot staffing change to an attitude that promoted the belief that "anyone can be trained to do anything". Maybe that is the case (I would have always like to play the piano), but sadly as a both a line Captain and a Check Airman, I have encountered far too many pilots - especially in the last decade of my career - that might have done better as stock brokers.

I would like to have Puma44's input because I never had the opportunity to try military training. But given the stakes involved, I had always assumed there was no place for "good enough". Who would give a 50 million dollar fighter jet to some clown that might prang it before the fight even starts?

Flying airplanes is fun but its equally unforgiving. I don't claim to have the answer to the world-wide pilot shortage but turning out bodies in the interest of staffing ahead of quality is certainly going to result in a lot more splashed airplanes.

Busher, do you know what they call someone who graduates last from Medical School?


"Doctor."
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