Atlas 3591; 767 crash; interim NTSB report is out.

[Ciaphas]

That seems excessive?. . . lol I know people older and more experienced as well as younger and less experienced than I, that have not (to date) failed a "Check ride". However, I also know people that have (without exaggeration) flunked every single check ride they have ever taken, one person in particular more than once for each rating, and is flying "professionally" today.

That's poor business to allow someone to continue in a career field if they fail every evaluation... .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Busher]

That's poor business to allow someone to continue in a career field if they fail every evaluation... .


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

Who's "business"? The airline's?

[Ciaphas]

Who's "business"? The airline's?

Any business. If you have any employee who fails every evaluation they need to find a new career. That is a safety liability for everyone involved. That makes me think that his "check ride" results were over looked simply to keep meat in the seat and nothing more.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Oldman731]

Any business. If you have any employee who fails every evaluation they need to find a new career. That is a safety liability for everyone involved. That makes me think that his "check ride" results were over looked simply to keep meat in the seat and nothing more.

Could be.  As I understand it, there is a lot of pressure on the airlines now simply to get pilots to fly the planes.  So the manufacturers dumb down the planes, knowing that they'll be operated by pilots who wouldn't have made the cut 20 years ago.

Or so I understand it.

- oldman

[mikeWe9a]

Could be.  As I understand it, there is a lot of pressure on the airlines now simply to get pilots to fly the planes.  So the manufacturers dumb down the planes, knowing that they'll be operated by pilots who wouldn't have made the cut 20 years ago.

Or so I understand it.

- oldman

The requirements for training and experience to become an airline pilot are actually higher now than they were 20 years ago, at least in the US.  This is one reason for the shortage in qualified pilots, although retirements and industry growth are also factors.  The systems used have changed significantly (navigation systems especially), but the standards for getting a license as a professional pilot have not dropped (again, in the US).  There are countries where training and licensing standards are low compared to the US, but I don't believe that those standards are lower than they used to be - it is more that 20 years ago those countries didn't have boast international airlines which would make the world news when they crashed into the side of a mountain.  Accident rates are in fact much lower world wide than they were 20 years ago.

Mike

[pembquist]

I'm curious about the pay. When I was growing up in the 70's it seemed like airline pilots were making an extremely comfortable living without having to fly that much. (Mind you this is just the perception of a kid.) In inflation adjusted terms including benefits and retirement are pilots in general making as much as they used to? I ask because it seems like the answer would be no and it seems like that would tend to drive people out or make them less likely to commit to a career that seems increasingly button pushing. I read some stuff about head hunting pilots for Chinese airlines and doling out the big bucks but I have to assume that that is temporary and makes it hard to have a family life if you live in the states.

[Ciaphas]

Inwould be curious to know the statistics pertaining to pilot retirement from 2000 to 2010 vs pilot recruitment during the same time frame.

I wonder if job non availability pushed people to other careers because time spent learning didn't equal out to a positive paycheck or even job placement.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[Vraciu]

That seems excessive?. . . lol I know people older and more experienced as well as younger and less experienced than I, that have not (to date) failed a "Check ride". However, I also know people that have (without exaggeration) flunked every single check ride they have ever taken, one person in particular more than once for each rating, and is flying "professionally" today.

Just about everyone busts something.   

I busted my Multi-Commercial (I still argue that I did what I was trained to do, but he said that didn't matter...and thus I took it as a lesson learned that I've carried with me to this day, passed it along to others, so it was a good thing).   My record is perfect otherwise.

A lone bust is not significant.    It's a trend  of failure that matters.


Anyone can bust a ride on any day.  As an instructor you can bust anyone who walks into that bay.  But that's really not the point.    We're trying to teach, not fail.

[Vraciu]

I'm curious about the pay. When I was growing up in the 70's it seemed like airline pilots were making an extremely comfortable living without having to fly that much. (Mind you this is just the perception of a kid.) In inflation adjusted terms including benefits and retirement are pilots in general making as much as they used to? I ask because it seems like the answer would be no and it seems like that would tend to drive people out or make them less likely to commit to a career that seems increasingly button pushing. I read some stuff about head hunting pilots for Chinese airlines and doling out the big bucks but I have to assume that that is temporary and makes it hard to have a family life if you live in the states.

We are reaping what was sown when I came through the Regionals.   I made $17K to fly an ERJ.  People saw that and said no way.   Not worth it.

Then they upped the requirements which only exacerbated the problem. 

Now they're paying sign on bonuses that exceeded what I made as a Captain on the Embraer 135/140/145.

[Ciaphas]

A lone bust is not significant.    It's a trend  of failure that matters.

As with all training that is the key, a pattern of fails means the individual is not learning the material, not taking it seriously and is just plain out not ready to perform their job.

[Busher]

I'm curious about the pay. When I was growing up in the 70's it seemed like airline pilots were making an extremely comfortable living without having to fly that much. (Mind you this is just the perception of a kid.) In inflation adjusted terms including benefits and retirement are pilots in general making as much as they used to? I ask because it seems like the answer would be no and it seems like that would tend to drive people out or make them less likely to commit to a career that seems increasingly button pushing. I read some stuff about head hunting pilots for Chinese airlines and doling out the big bucks but I have to assume that that is temporary and makes it hard to have a family life if you live in the states.

In the 1960's and early 70's, airline pilots were well paid and the cost of getting the credentials necessary to be an airline pilot were very reasonable to even average income families.

In 1978, Carter deregulated the industry and the blood-letting began. Airlines failed, low cost carriers began and the downward pressure on pilot salaries was enormous. Many believe that certain product liability suits drove the cost of becoming a pilot to the same level as a medical degree. Many pilots left the industry and the supply of new entrants dried up. As Vraciu pointed out, who's going to invest $100K to earn $17K  a year?

[bustr]

The way people leave after a poor showing in training.    It depends.   If you haven't busted a ride yet you can quit.   Once you bust a ride that usually is reportable.     But busting a ride isn't necessarily the end of the world.    99% of people bust at least once even if it's just a Private Pilot checkride.    The problem arises when it becomes a pattern like this guy had.

The old man didn't quit. He passed the next check a week later by the book and worked his way to his dream of getting a jet ticket. Sadly when he was 60 and took his first jet check ride to get his ticket, the FAA grounded him for his pacemaker. Still he had a good run, just before that he was flying for a service that did ambulance and emergency organ delivery. He kept earning tickets for commercial ratings and as a commercial instructor out of pocket and as part of his compensation from the companies he worked for. All he wanted to do was fly airplanes any way he could.

Guess it's the individual man in the end that determines these outcomes regardless of the tech to make up for lack of experience.

[bustr]

I found this from Australia about Boeing starting a new aircraft type division that would produce a replacement for the MAX category. Other financial stories from as far back as 2015 were showing carriers were slowing down on their interest in the 737 as a viable platform into the future. South West revised it's orders down for the MAX before the crashes.


https://australianaviation.com.au/2017/11/boeing-names-senior-engineer-to-new-small-airplane-project-team-report/

[Busher]

I found this from Australia about Boeing starting a new aircraft type division that would produce a replacement for the MAX category. Other financial stories from as far back as 2015 were showing carriers were slowing down on their interest in the 737 as a viable platform into the future. South West revised it's orders down for the MAX before the crashes.


https://australianaviation.com.au/2017/11/boeing-names-senior-engineer-to-new-small-airplane-project-team-report/

You have to love writers don't you... Title talks about a "new small" airplane that carries 225 to 270 people.

[FLS]

The writers that know stuff cost too much. Maybe that's why performance standards aren't part of the inexpensive writer's world view.