Author Topic: Doc Halladay - NTSB report finally in  (Read 2365 times)

Offline Oldman731

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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Doc Halladay - NTSB report finally in
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2020, 09:59:57 AM »
I had seen in the news he was full of drugs.
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Offline perdue3

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Re: Doc Halladay - NTSB report finally in
« Reply #2 on: April 16, 2020, 10:24:08 AM »
I had seen in the news he was full of drugs.

Yes, and the FAA would not allow one to fly in that state. However, it is reasonable to believe that Halladay felt he was fine because these are everyday drugs for him (sleep aid, pain, muscle relaxer, antidepressant). I doubt the drugs had a significant impact on his abilities; if so, maybe only slightly. The final maneuver was poorly executed and expectedly ended in tragedy.
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Offline Meatwad

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Re: Doc Halladay - NTSB report finally in
« Reply #3 on: April 16, 2020, 11:30:46 AM »
Yes, and the FAA would not allow one to fly in that state. However, it is reasonable to believe that Halladay felt he was fine because these are everyday drugs for him (sleep aid, pain, muscle relaxer, antidepressant). I doubt the drugs had a significant impact on his abilities; if so, maybe only slightly. The final maneuver was poorly executed and expectedly ended in tragedy.

Looks like the report showed him whacked out of his head with all the drugs they found in him
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Doc Halladay - NTSB report finally in
« Reply #4 on: April 16, 2020, 11:52:21 AM »
Lucky he didn't take anyone with him. In October GPS shows he flew under a bridge there.
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Offline perdue3

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Re: Doc Halladay - NTSB report finally in
« Reply #5 on: April 16, 2020, 01:59:40 PM »
Looks like the report showed him whacked out of his head with all the drugs they found in him

Tolerance is not to be taken lightly here. With that being said, he was still under a considerable influence.
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Online Mister Fork

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Re: Doc Halladay - NTSB report finally in
« Reply #6 on: April 16, 2020, 02:27:04 PM »
This is what was in his blood:
- Zolpidem (0.088 µg/ml) - sleep aid, probably from the night before
- Amphetamine (2.2 µg/ml) (above .02 is considered abuse). he was stoned.
- Morphine (0.192 µg/ml) (to 0.100 µg/ml is considered therapeutic use) he was now doubally stoned.
- Fluoxetine (0.984 µg/ml) (antidepressant and it impairs judgement)
- Norfluoxetine (1.569 µg/ml) (medical derivative of Fluxetine, guess he needed more and also impairs judgement)
- Baclofen ((0.72 µg/ml) (strong muscle relaxant, impairs judgement)
- Hydromorphone (traces), similar to morphine.

Frugg. The guy was a flying Friday college chemistry frat party. One of these drugs could of resulted in pilot impairment and the resulting accident.
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Offline perdue3

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Re: Doc Halladay - NTSB report finally in
« Reply #7 on: April 16, 2020, 03:06:47 PM »
This is what was in his blood:
- Zolpidem (0.088 µg/ml) - sleep aid, probably from the night before
- Amphetamine (2.2 µg/ml) (above .02 is considered abuse). he was stoned.
- Morphine (0.192 µg/ml) (to 0.100 µg/ml is considered therapeutic use) he was now doubally stoned.
- Fluoxetine (0.984 µg/ml) (antidepressant and it impairs judgement)
- Norfluoxetine (1.569 µg/ml) (medical derivative of Fluxetine, guess he needed more and also impairs judgement)
- Baclofen ((0.72 µg/ml) (strong muscle relaxant, impairs judgement)
- Hydromorphone (traces), similar to morphine.

Frugg. The guy was a flying Friday college chemistry frat party. One of these drugs could of resulted in pilot impairment and the resulting accident.

I agree. I am just adding that as an aging professional athlete, these drugs were very common for him. These were a daily prescription for likely many years. It seems like a lot to you and I, but to someone who had been taking these doses for years may not be quite as much. Was he impaired? Most likely, yes. Was he so impaired to where he could not operate an aircraft? No. Did the drugs have an impact on his judgement regarding the penultimate maneuver? Perhaps.
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Offline Gman

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Re: Doc Halladay - NTSB report finally in
« Reply #8 on: April 16, 2020, 05:33:57 PM »
I agree. I am just adding that as an aging professional athlete, these drugs were very common for him. These were a daily prescription for likely many years. It seems like a lot to you and I, but to someone who had been taking these doses for years may not be quite as much. Was he impaired? Most likely, yes. Was he so impaired to where he could not operate an aircraft? No. Did the drugs have an impact on his judgement regarding the penultimate maneuver? Perhaps.

Agreed.  I'd like to hear what his doctors have to say before besmirching the man's legacy.

The levels of drugs found in his system are probably less than what my mother had in hers when she died, as she was prescribed everything on that list and then some.  I know for a fact from her bloodwork results that the Baclofen and Morphine results are pretty typical of a 30 to 60mg twice per day script for long acting slow release Morphine, and for a typical Baclofen script.  It also depends on the time before death these scripts/drugs were taken, and the results from lab tests can vary wildly with the same dose because of this.

The amphetamine result is the only one that gives me any pause, as they weren't very specific about the type of amphetamine that was detected.  It's very, very possible he was on Adderall or Ritalin, and it's surprising how high the dose of some if not all of the drugs listed can get after long term use.  My mother was 86 lbs when she died, and she was on 150 micrograms/hour of Fentanyl, just to give an example. 

I agree with Perd regarding the level of impairment - we'll never know how much this contributed to his accident, but there are tons of people on long term prescription meds in North America, driving, and even flying, every day.  Once the body develops a tolerance to many of these drugs, it's surprising how many will pass roadside impairment tests performed by law enforcement...

Offline Shuffler

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Re: Doc Halladay - NTSB report finally in
« Reply #9 on: April 16, 2020, 06:11:38 PM »
I agree. I am just adding that as an aging professional athlete, these drugs were very common for him. These were a daily prescription for likely many years. It seems like a lot to you and I, but to someone who had been taking these doses for years may not be quite as much. Was he impaired? Most likely, yes. Was he so impaired to where he could not operate an aircraft? No. Did the drugs have an impact on his judgement regarding the penultimate maneuver? Perhaps.

Well he crashed.... so there is that.
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Doc Halladay - NTSB report finally in
« Reply #10 on: April 16, 2020, 06:13:14 PM »
Agreed.  I'd like to hear what his doctors have to say before besmirching the man's legacy.

The levels of drugs found in his system are probably less than what my mother had in hers when she died, as she was prescribed everything on that list and then some.  I know for a fact from her bloodwork results that the Baclofen and Morphine results are pretty typical of a 30 to 60mg twice per day script for long acting slow release Morphine, and for a typical Baclofen script.  It also depends on the time before death these scripts/drugs were taken, and the results from lab tests can vary wildly with the same dose because of this.

The amphetamine result is the only one that gives me any pause, as they weren't very specific about the type of amphetamine that was detected.  It's very, very possible he was on Adderall or Ritalin, and it's surprising how high the dose of some if not all of the drugs listed can get after long term use.  My mother was 86 lbs when she died, and she was on 150 micrograms/hour of Fentanyl, just to give an example. 

I agree with Perd regarding the level of impairment - we'll never know how much this contributed to his accident, but there are tons of people on long term prescription meds in North America, driving, and even flying, every day.  Once the body develops a tolerance to many of these drugs, it's surprising how many will pass roadside impairment tests performed by law enforcement...

Do you think you are going to pass your med for a flight license with that load?
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Offline Busher

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Re: Doc Halladay - NTSB report finally in
« Reply #11 on: April 16, 2020, 06:14:11 PM »
Most of those drugs would end an airline pilot's career if he were checked before commencing a work day.

I think the answer is simpler. A relatively inexperienced private pilot "horsing around" low level in an airplane that he had very little time in. It's a shame that the FAA did not pull his ticket for antics like this before it killed him.
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Offline perdue3

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Re: Doc Halladay - NTSB report finally in
« Reply #12 on: April 16, 2020, 06:50:01 PM »
Shuffler, you are missing the point. He crashed due to a PiC error. Whether or not the drugs contributed to that error is a mystery. It is a lot of drugs, yes. But, for someone who has taken a steady dosage of them for 10 years, it may not be. Will the FAA allow you to fly a plane high on speed? No. My point is, the drugs may not have caused the impairment which led to his crash. We (and the NTSB) cannot completely attribute the drugs to the cause of crash.
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Offline perdue3

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Re: Doc Halladay - NTSB report finally in
« Reply #13 on: April 16, 2020, 06:51:32 PM »
Most of those drugs would end an airline pilot's career if he were checked before commencing a work day.

I think the answer is simpler. A relatively inexperienced private pilot "horsing around" low level in an airplane that he had very little time in. It's a shame that the FAA did not pull his ticket for antics like this before it killed him.

Yes, Busher. This is my point. He was being an idiot, drugs or not. He had little time in the Icon and was flying like a teenager. This was reckless flying more so than drug related impairment.
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Doc Halladay - NTSB report finally in
« Reply #14 on: April 16, 2020, 08:42:36 PM »
Yes, Busher. This is my point. He was being an idiot, drugs or not. He had little time in the Icon and was flying like a teenager. This was reckless flying more so than drug related impairment.


Reckless flying, certainly.  But why?  Seems to me like a "Hold my beer, doll, and watch this" episode.  You can do that stone cold sober, but it's so much easier if you're trashed.

I feel bad for his family; his wife is class. 

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