Author Topic: Let's talk Bombers (specifically B-17 but applies to others)  (Read 1004 times)

Offline Arlo

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Let's talk Bombers (specifically B-17 but applies to others)
« on: April 16, 2020, 02:36:50 PM »
OK. The B-17 experience in Aces High is as follows:

10 positions in the B-17, 8 of which the player can serve as (plus one other player if allowed to gun) -



1. Pilot - yes
2. Co-pilot - no
3. Bombardier - yes (also the nose turret gunner)
4. Navigator - yes, if you see this as the clipboard functioning as such
5. Radio operator - no (missing gun position, technically)
6. Top turret/engineer - yes
7. Left waist gunner - yes
8. Right waist gunner - yes
9. Ball turret gunner - yes
10. Tail gunner - yes

For practical purposes in AH a pilot wound in a B-17 is a pilot, co-pilot, bombardier, navigator (and all surviving gunners) wound. Unless you're really close to a friendly field you're not going to make it back. Granted, historically there was a fair chance that if the bomber took a cockpit hit both pilots could be wounded - but it wasn't always the case. It'd be kinda nice if you could switch from pilot to co-pilot and both were separate target objects. That would give at least a chance that the co-pilot could take over.

The bombardier. If this represented a separate target object, however, then there would be a chance that he could be killed/knocked out of commission before the drop was made (taking away the F6 view or calibration ability). The pilot/co-pilot could still toggle the bombs but would have to rely on another bomber's bombardier to scope the run (or just dead reckon it - being lucky to score hits at all).

The navigator. If this was a separate target object then it presents a rather unusual and unique problem. What do we do - blank out the clipboard map? May be a bit too much to suggest.

All other positions can be disabled/killed without it affecting the pilot/co-pilot/bombardier.

Gunning. Multi-gun position bombers can only aim/fire at one attacking fighter at a time (unless the player is joined by a second that volunteers to be a gunner). What if all unmanned gun positions were able to auto-target and fire at the closest enemy aircraft in their field of fire? It doesn't have to be 'perfect' gunnery but anything could make a difference (especially when the player's in the scope).

Life support damage. B-17 crews relied on oxygen and electrically heated suits. Either (or both) of those taking a hit means that bomber needs to dive down to a survivable altitude. Geez. Meh. Never-mind.

Having said all that, flying B-17s is still fun and challenging (as is). None of what I'm suggesting is absolutely critical. Just throwing out an idea or two to bounce around, whack, eviscerate, blow up and immerse in acid. :D
« Last Edit: April 16, 2020, 02:41:05 PM by Arlo »

Offline hazmatt

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Re: Let's talk Bombers (specifically B-17 but applies to others)
« Reply #1 on: April 16, 2020, 06:33:22 PM »
Interesting stuff.

Offline 800nate800

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Re: Let's talk Bombers (specifically B-17 but applies to others)
« Reply #2 on: April 17, 2020, 12:52:58 AM »
+1 on missing radio op. gun
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Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: Let's talk Bombers (specifically B-17 but applies to others)
« Reply #3 on: April 17, 2020, 11:36:27 AM »
I could see HTC programming in a more stout pilot wound requirement (I don't remember the last time I had a PW in a bomber). IIRC... my g'pa said he was cross trained in all stations in the B24, so I think it would adding more complexity with little or no immersion.
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Offline ONTOS

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Re: Let's talk Bombers (specifically B-17 but applies to others)
« Reply #4 on: April 17, 2020, 12:58:47 PM »
+1

Offline Volron

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Re: Let's talk Bombers (specifically B-17 but applies to others)
« Reply #5 on: April 19, 2020, 12:08:30 AM »
I wish for the B-17E and F.

FIXED  :D


Silliness aside:  I wouldn't mind if I could have some "auto" gunners.  It was very annoying that I could not .salvo 12, toggle bomb drop; only to watch/hear my bombs stop dropping when I jump into a gun to defend myself, only to have them start resume dropping after leaving gun spot.

If anything, I'd say wish for bombs to continue to salvo out after you've begun the drop, while you jump to a gun to defend yourself in a gunner spot.
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Offline AKKuya

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Re: Let's talk Bombers (specifically B-17 but applies to others)
« Reply #6 on: April 19, 2020, 12:58:23 AM »
You get this one granted.  You will be promoted to Grasshopper status.
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Offline Chalenge

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Re: Let's talk Bombers (specifically B-17 but applies to others)
« Reply #7 on: April 19, 2020, 01:00:54 AM »
I could see HTC programming in a more stout pilot wound requirement (I don't remember the last time I had a PW in a bomber). IIRC... my g'pa said he was cross trained in all stations in the B24, so I think it would adding more complexity with little or no immersion.

Usually, if the pilot is wounded he gets killed outright. Copilot also.
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Offline Arlo

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Re: Let's talk Bombers (specifically B-17 but applies to others)
« Reply #8 on: April 19, 2020, 09:48:58 AM »
Usually, if the pilot is wounded he gets killed outright. Copilot also.

I used to think that, too. Turns out that isn't actually true (in AH). Over half of our He-111s sustained pilot wounds over London town when Nef and company was testing that element of a scenario. More of them more likely from flak than the Spitfires but we were facing both.

Historically speaking, there are at least a few of heroic examples involving wounded pilots:

WILLIAM R. LAWLEY, JR.

(MOH) for conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity in action above and beyond the call of duty, 20 February 1944, while serving as pilot of a B-17 aircraft on a heavy bombardment mission over enemy-occupied continental Europe. Coming off the target he was attacked by approximately 20 enemy fighters, shot out of formation, and his plane severely crippled. Eight crewmembers were wounded, the copilot was killed by a 20-mm. shell. One engine was on fire, the controls shot away, and 1st Lt. Lawley seriously and painfully wounded about the face. Forcing the copilot's body off the controls, he brought the plane out of a steep dive, flying with his left hand only. Blood covered the instruments and windshield and visibility was impossible. With a full bomb load the plane was difficult to maneuver and bombs could not be released because the racks were frozen. After the order to bail out had been given, one of the waist gunners informed the pilot that two crewmembers were so severely wounded that it would be impossible for them to bail out. With the fire in the engine spreading, the danger of an explosion was imminent. Because of the helpless condition of his wounded crewmembers 1st Lt. Lawley elected to remain with the ship and bring them to safety if it was humanly possible, giving the other crewmembers the option of bailing out. Enemy fighters again attacked but by using masterful evasive action he managed to lose them. One engine again caught on fire and was extinguished by skillful flying. 1st Lt. Lawley remained at his post, refusing first aid until he collapsed from sheer exhaustion caused by loss of blood, shock, and the energy he had expended in keeping control of his plane. He was revived by the bombardier and again took over the controls. Coming over the English coast one engine ran out of gasoline and had to be feathered. Another engine started to burn and continued to do so until a successful crash landing was made on a small fighter base. Through his heroism and exceptional flying skill, 1st Lt. Lawley rendered outstanding distinguished and valorous service to our Nation.

EDWARD S. MICHAEL

(MOH) for conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty while serving as pilot of a B-17 aircraft on a heavy-bombardment mission to Germany, 11 April 1944.

The group in which 1st Lt. Michael was flying was attacked by a swarm of fighters. His plane was singled out and the fighters pressed their attacks home recklessly, completely disregarding the Allied fighter escort and their own intense flak. His plane was riddled from nose to tail with exploding cannon shells and knocked out of formation, with a large number of fighters following it down, blasting it with cannon fire as it descended. A cannon shell exploded in the cockpit, wounded the copilot, wrecked the instruments, and blew out the side window. 1st Lt. Michael was seriously and painfully wounded in the right thigh. Hydraulic fluid filmed over the windshield making visibility impossible, and smoke filled the cockpit. The controls failed to respond and 3,000 feet were lost before he succeeded in leveling off. The radio operator informed him that the whole bomb bay was in flames as a result of the explosion of three cannon shells, which had ignited the incendiaries.

With a full load of incendiaries in the bomb bay and a considerable gas load in the tanks, the danger of fire enveloping the plane and the tanks exploding seemed imminent. When the emergency release lever failed to function, 1st Lt. Michael at once gave the order to bail out and seven of the crew left the plane. Seeing the bombardier firing the navigator's gun at the enemy planes, 1st Lt. Michael ordered him to bail out as the plane was liable to explode any minute. When the bombardier looked for his parachute he found that it had been riddled with 20mm. fragments and was useless.

1st Lt. Michael, seeing the ruined parachute, realized that if the plane was abandoned the bombardier would perish and decided that the only chance would be a crash landing. Completely disregarding his own painful and profusely bleeding wounds, but thinking only of the safety of the remaining crewmembers, he gallantly evaded the enemy, using violent evasive action despite the battered condition of his plane. After the plane had been under sustained enemy attack for fully 45 minutes, 1st Lt. Michael finally lost the persistent fighters in a cloud bank. Upon emerging, an accurate barrage of flak caused him to come down to treetop level where flak towers poured a continuous rain of fire on the plane. He continued into France, realizing that at any moment a crash landing might have to be attempted, but trying to get as far as possible to increase the escape possibilities if a safe landing could be achieved.

1st Lt. Michael flew the plane until he became exhausted from the loss of blood, which had formed on the floor in pools, and he lost consciousness. The copilot succeeded in reaching England and sighted an RAF field near the coast. 1st Lt. Michael finally regained consciousness and insisted upon taking over the controls to land the plane. The undercarriage was useless; the bomb bay doors were jammed open; the hydraulic system and altimeter were shot out. In addition, there was no airspeed indicator, the ball turret was jammed with the guns pointing downward, and the flaps would not respond. Despite these apparently insurmountable obstacles, he landed the plane without mishap.

JOHN C. MORGAN (His experience was portrayed in 12 O'Clock High though adapted)

(MOH) for conspicuous gallantry and intrepidity above and beyond the call of duty, while participating on a bombing mission over enemy-occupied continental Europe, 28 July 1943. Prior to reaching the German coast on the way to the target, the B17 airplane in which 2d Lt. Morgan was serving as copilot was attacked by a large force of enemy fighters, during which the oxygen system to the tail, waist, and radio gun positions was knocked out. A frontal attack placed a cannon shell through the windshield, totally shattering it, and the pilot's skull was split open by a .303 caliber shell, leaving him in a crazed condition. The pilot fell over the steering wheel, tightly clamping his arms around it. 2d Lt. Morgan at once grasped the controls from his side and, by sheer strength, pulled the airplane back into formation despite the frantic struggles of the semiconscious pilot. The interphone had been destroyed, rendering it impossible to call for help. At this time the top turret gunner fell to the floor and down through the hatch with his arm shot off at the shoulder and a gaping wound in his side. The waist, tail, and radio gunners had lost consciousness from lack of oxygen and, hearing no fire from their guns, the copilot believed they had bailed out. The wounded pilot still offered desperate resistance in his crazed attempts to fly the airplane. There remained the prospect of flying to and over the target and back to a friendly base wholly unassisted. In the face of this desperate situation, 2d Lt. Officer Morgan made his decision to continue the flight and protect any members of the crew who might still be in the ship and for two hours he flew in formation with one hand at the controls and the other holding off the struggling pilot before the navigator entered the steering compartment and relieved the situation. The miraculous and heroic performance of 2d Lt. Morgan on this occasion resulted in the successful completion of a vital bombing mission and the safe return of his airplane and crew.

JAY ZEAMER, JR.

On 16 June 1943, Maj. Zeamer (then Capt.) volunteered as pilot of a bomber on an important photographic mapping mission covering the formidably defended area in the vicinity of Buka, Solomon Islands. While photographing the Buka airdrome his crew observed about 20 enemy fighters on the field, many of them taking off.

Despite the certainty of a dangerous attack by this strong force, Maj. Zeamer proceeded with his mapping run, even after the enemy attack began. In the ensuing engagement, Maj. Zeamer sustained gunshot wounds in both arms and legs, one leg being broken. Despite his injuries, he maneuvered the damaged plane so skillfully that his gunners were able to fight off the enemy during a running fight which lasted 40 minutes.

The crew destroyed at least five hostile planes, of which Maj. Zeamer himself shot down one. Although weak from loss of blood, he refused medical aid until the enemy had broken combat. He then turned over the controls, but continued to exercise command despite lapses into unconsciousness, and directed the flight to a base 580 miles away.

In this voluntary action, Maj. Zeamer, with superb skill, resolution, and courage, accomplished a mission of great value.

http://www.worldwar2history.info/Medal-of-Honor/Air-Corps.html

And those are just the MOH examples.

The following is a fairly famous account:

Charlie Brown and Franz Stigler incident

Offline LCADolby

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Re: Let's talk Bombers (specifically B-17 but applies to others)
« Reply #9 on: April 19, 2020, 10:24:16 AM »
A wish for all positions to be manned by players, the removal of F3 camera, the removal of the ability to jump position instantly and fire all weapons, the removal of formations in exchange for 3 pilot wounds?   :banana:
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Offline Hotstuff

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Re: Let's talk Bombers (specifically B-17 but applies to others)
« Reply #10 on: April 19, 2020, 10:28:20 AM »
Good points Arlo. Here's my thoughts on two things in particular, I think you covered co-pilot modeling well enough:

1. Auto-firing gun positions. Bombers are very vulnerable when nearing the target. I dread this as a bomber pilot and I exploit it when I am a fighter intercepting bombers. Who likes to spend an hour flying a bomber to a target, at a not-ridiculous altitude, to only get intercepted by a fighter at the WORST time imaginable. So you are faced with two choices, either commit to bombing while the fighter eats you away, or fight him off and then hope you can make another go around. Even if the auto-firing positions weren't super effective, it would make fighters more hesitant to attack and give the bomber pilot a much better chance.

2. Oxygen system or other altitude restrictions/considerations. Bombers flying at insane altitudes is ridiculous and makes intercepting almost impossible. Even with a Ta152H you have an awful chance at intercepting when bombers decide to come in at 33K. Superchargers for 109s aren't even geared for those altitudes. Even P51s as bomber escort planes aren't geared for that high. If you can make the intercept, it is hard to do even basic maneuvers at that altitude, and if you lose position it takes forever to gain it back. I have spent tons of ammo to not even land a hit, it is so hard to maneuver. And if you make a tail attack, you are dead. Unless I can up in a Me163 or 262 it is just not worth trying.

Offline icepac

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Re: Let's talk Bombers (specifically B-17 but applies to others)
« Reply #11 on: May 04, 2020, 10:42:19 AM »
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Offline wrench

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Re: Let's talk Bombers (specifically B-17 but applies to others)
« Reply #12 on: May 04, 2020, 04:49:43 PM »
nope
Leave that thing alone!
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Offline Avman

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Re: Let's talk Bombers (specifically B-17 but applies to others)
« Reply #13 on: May 15, 2020, 02:11:58 PM »
Auto Gunners would be a nice addition for all bombers.
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