Author Topic: Aircraft engine restarts while in the air  (Read 764 times)

Offline Eagler

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Aircraft engine restarts while in the air
« on: June 04, 2020, 08:23:56 AM »
Make aircraft engine air restarts as dependable as they were in the actual aircraft

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Eagler

Offline hitech

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Re: Aircraft engine restarts while in the air
« Reply #1 on: June 04, 2020, 10:12:20 AM »
Make aircraft engine air restarts as dependable as they were in the actual aircraft

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Eagler

They are, you simply have a false assumption about engines not restarting.

HiTech

Offline Wiley

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Re: Aircraft engine restarts while in the air
« Reply #2 on: June 04, 2020, 03:00:57 PM »
The googles are failing me.  I wonder what the actual stats are for restarting an engine that didn't die because something was wrong but rather shut off intentionally.

I find it really odd how many people lose their minds over someone shutting off the engine in a dogfight.  I still think you can accomplish pretty much the same thing with throttle management and it's faster to apply power again vs shutting it off.

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Offline FESS67

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Re: Aircraft engine restarts while in the air
« Reply #3 on: June 04, 2020, 03:41:33 PM »

I find it really odd how many people lose their minds over someone shutting off the engine in a dogfight.  I still think you can accomplish pretty much the same thing with throttle management and it's faster to apply power again vs shutting it off.

Wiley.

Not true.  There are certain low energy moves over the top of the loop that you can do with the engine off which cannot be done with the engine on.  Additionally, recover of some spins is much easier with the engine off.  I found that to be particularly true in the spitfires.

Offline Wiley

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Re: Aircraft engine restarts while in the air
« Reply #4 on: June 04, 2020, 03:56:06 PM »
Not true.  There are certain low energy moves over the top of the loop that you can do with the engine off which cannot be done with the engine on.  Additionally, recover of some spins is much easier with the engine off.  I found that to be particularly true in the spitfires.

I'll give you the stall thing, I fly the 152 a lot. ;)  But what can you do coming over the top that you can't do with proper throttle control?  Easier, maybe, but I don't see what you can do that you absolutely can't without killing the throttle?

Wiley.
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Offline FESS67

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Re: Aircraft engine restarts while in the air
« Reply #5 on: June 05, 2020, 12:04:32 AM »
I'll give you the stall thing, I fly the 152 a lot. ;)  But what can you do coming over the top that you can't do with proper throttle control?  Easier, maybe, but I don't see what you can do that you absolutely can't without killing the throttle?

Wiley.

Been a while since I flew but from memory, try a vertical rudder turn to the right in a P51 or F4U on the edge of the stall.  With engine on you will struggle to get it turned and usually wallow back over to the left then fight for control.  With engine off the nose will drop down very nicely and you can maintain control.

Worth noting that usually these sorts of things are done when trying to rope and opponent who is close to your E state and usually within firing range.  He will be fighting the stall as well.  With engine off not only do you make the turn but you are also then only closing the gap with gravity and not dragged down by engine power.

This point is also pertinent when considering the time it takes to restart the engine and get the use of the throttle again.  Under these conditions the restart time is not a factor and you have plenty of time before you need that throttle again.  If that is not the case then the situation you are in is not one where engine off is the correct choice.  Example, a second con is in play.  In those situations, do not go to absolute stall, do not try to rudder right at the top and do not cut your engine.

ps.  Turning auto trim off in this situation is highly beneficial as well.

Offline perdue3

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Re: Aircraft engine restarts while in the air
« Reply #6 on: June 05, 2020, 12:51:58 AM »
To me, it is not really the dependable nature of an aerial restart or even the reliability of the engine itself; it is more of the game aspect. Would a WWII pilot really kill his engine while in a grueling dogfight? This is why I say it is gamey, because it wouldn't happen. And, if it did, it certainly didn't happen often.
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Offline FESS67

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Re: Aircraft engine restarts while in the air
« Reply #7 on: June 05, 2020, 01:10:57 AM »
To me, it is not really the dependable nature of an aerial restart or even the reliability of the engine itself; it is more of the game aspect. Would a WWII pilot really kill his engine while in a grueling dogfight? This is why I say it is gamey, because it wouldn't happen. And, if it did, it certainly didn't happen often.

100% agree.  I cannot imagine any fighter pilot ever used that as a tactic and if they did it would be a 1 in a million occurrence.  However, as has already been mentioned, this is a game not real life and in the game there are occasions where it is beneficial.  This brings to mind a time years ago when I was playing Tiger Woods golf on the Wii with my young son.  When putting he would use a driver because it gave a track of where the ball would go.  He nailed the putt every time.  I of course complained, that simply is not the way to play golf.  "But it lets me do it and it is easier than using the putter".

True.  It was my attachment to 'reality' that was holding me back.  He was right, in the reality of that game the right thing to do was use the tools provided regardless of how it feels in the 'real' world.

Offline Eagler

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Re: Aircraft engine restarts while in the air
« Reply #8 on: June 05, 2020, 05:55:55 AM »
They are, you simply have a false assumption about engines not restarting.

HiTech

I guess i do

Are you saying it was as simple as pushing a single button in a ww2 aircraft to kill and then restart its engine?

Then again I use combat trim prorammed to a button on the throttle so I guess I'll shut up :)

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Offline Shuffler

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Re: Aircraft engine restarts while in the air
« Reply #9 on: June 05, 2020, 07:10:28 AM »
When some get out flown in a fight, they will try anything available to them.
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Offline morfiend

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Re: Aircraft engine restarts while in the air
« Reply #10 on: June 05, 2020, 08:57:39 AM »
Olds claims to  have shot down a 109 with the engine off,he jettisoned the drops and forgot to select the mains on the fuel switch and his 38 ran out of fuel.

 I suspect the pucker factor was above normal,however he did get the kill and managed to restart both engines and go home. :aok


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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Aircraft engine restarts while in the air
« Reply #11 on: June 05, 2020, 09:28:00 AM »

Quote
               
FO: Hey, what happened to you guys?
      A couple of minutes back there you didn't answer my calls.

Cole: Oh, that.  We had a MiG after us.  We did an engine shutdown to throw him off. 

FO:  In the middle of combat? Whew! Cool move.

Cole: Cool as a jewel.

Grafton: That's b@ll$h!t!

-Flight of the Intruder
 ;)
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Online Puma44

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Re: Aircraft engine restarts while in the air
« Reply #12 on: June 05, 2020, 10:10:45 AM »
To me, it is not really the dependable nature of an aerial restart or even the reliability of the engine itself; it is more of the game aspect. Would a WWII pilot really kill his engine while in a grueling dogfight? This is why I say it is gamey, because it wouldn't happen. And, if it did, it certainly didn't happen often.

Agree.  Never even thought of doing such a thing on the outside chance a restart wouldnt occur or Id screw up the restart in the heat of battle.  Intentionally shutting down an engine to gain an advantage could be more a lack of basic flying skill than a logical tactic.  The seconds lost doing a restart could also be an unnecessary distraction in the midst of a flight. 



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Offline hitech

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Re: Aircraft engine restarts while in the air
« Reply #13 on: June 05, 2020, 10:27:39 AM »
Olds claims to  have shot down a 109 with the engine off,he jettisoned the drops and forgot to select the mains on the fuel switch and his 38 ran out of fuel.

 I suspect the pucker factor was above normal,however he did get the kill and managed to restart both engines and go home. :aok


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Not even a button press , simply push the mixture forward.

HiTech

Online Puma44

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Re: Aircraft engine restarts while in the air
« Reply #14 on: June 05, 2020, 10:42:48 AM »
Not even a button press , simply push the mixture forward.

HiTech

In the instance Morfiend presents, the mixture controls should have already been in the forward (Auto Rich) position, thus requiring additional actions to start the fuel starved engines.  Possibly, repositioning the throttles to prevent over boosting on start, repriming the engines, engaging the starters, and repositioning the throttles to the desired combat position.

From the P-38 Pilot Manual:

« Last Edit: June 05, 2020, 11:20:43 AM by Puma44 »



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