Author Topic: P-38 Techniques  (Read 5305 times)

Offline Slade

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P-38 Techniques
« on: October 28, 2020, 01:00:11 PM »
Hello,

I have never mastered any aspect of the P-38.  I thought I heard that if one turns off (briefly) one of the engines in a turn it will turn tighter.

Is that true? If yes, please share how the technique is executed.


Are there any other useful P-38 techniques that are unique to that plane that one can work to master?


Thanks,  :salute

X15
« Last Edit: October 28, 2020, 01:03:51 PM by Slade »
-- Flying as X15 --

Offline Shuffler

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #1 on: October 28, 2020, 01:07:34 PM »
One engine off will only get you into trouble. Even using split throttles usually gets you into trouble. May help when returning damaged though.

Lots of practice.....  one item you might find useful is hanging on the props. On the 38 they counter rotate so the do not induce roll on the aircraft. You can still have a lot of control at very low speeds.
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Offline FLS

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #2 on: October 28, 2020, 03:15:15 PM »
A conventional turn uses lift to turn. More lift causes more drag so reducing thrust on one engine typically makes your P-38 turn slower not faster. The only time going slower helps turning is when you are above corner speed.

One advantage of the P-38 is the balanced torque. This lets you fly slower than a single engine fighter while avoiding unintended yaw.  This can be useful for max altitude in a zoom climb and then using one engine can spin your nose around quickly when you have little airspeed.

Dual throttle control is useful for spin control. The engines are too close to the aircraft center line to cause much yaw by themselves at normal flying speeds but they can spin you when you are slow enough.

Here's an old video I made that demonstrates dual throttle control in a P-38.


Offline perdue3

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #3 on: October 28, 2020, 04:57:22 PM »
I recommend the Bf 109 family.  :devil
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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #4 on: October 28, 2020, 08:56:57 PM »
Hello,

I have never mastered any aspect of the P-38.  I thought I heard that if one turns off (briefly) one of the engines in a turn it will turn tighter.

Is that true? If yes, please share how the technique is executed.


Are there any other useful P-38 techniques that are unique to that plane that one can work to master?


Thanks,  :salute

X15

Never turn your off your engine. Becoming better at vertical ACM and retaining your E is what will make you roll and position better, not turning off your engine.

Use high looping rolls in the vertical. The P38 has excellent vertical climb with E control. Use lots of rudder and flap management. Fly smoothly but aggressive. Its a great plane for learning E management.

I recommend the Bf 109 family.  :devil

Funny enough, in the fighter mode, flying a p38 similar to a 109 is very beneficial, though you should escape the fight more quickly in situations due to its size.

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Offline atlau

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #5 on: October 29, 2020, 10:04:17 AM »
One of its best attributes are its guns. Center mounted with excellent ballistics means you can shoot at range with good precision and lethality gives you a longer window to kill an opponent and forces them to defend sooner vs say against a 30mm or widely spaced wing guns which have a lower pk at range.

Offline Drano

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #6 on: October 29, 2020, 11:40:49 AM »
One of its best attributes are its guns. Center mounted with excellent ballistics means you can shoot at range with good precision and lethality gives you a longer window to kill an opponent and forces them to defend sooner vs say against a 30mm or widely spaced wing guns which have a lower pk at range.
That is unless the guy shooting is me!

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Offline Slade

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #7 on: October 29, 2020, 02:30:23 PM »
Guys,

Wow really great info.  Thanks!  :cheers:

Which P-38 do you like to fly and why?


Thanks again,

X15  :salute
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Offline FLS

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #8 on: October 29, 2020, 03:27:45 PM »
When you practice loops, loops are vertical turns and the basis of vertical fights, practice with flaps. The P-38 has flaps that increase the wing area. Up to 50% extension, 3rd notch, adds more lift than drag. Full flaps add so much drag they are basically for landing.

If your loops are tilted rather than pure vertical you'll have more speed over the top and less over-speed through the bottom but tilting loops also affects turning room and that turning room is available for the bandit also.

Dive flaps do not help you turn.

Because the guns are clustered in the nose you get better long range shot density. Use the machine guns for longer range shots, save the cannon for closer shots when you are confident of hits.

Offline Drano

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #9 on: October 29, 2020, 03:45:34 PM »
I'm partial to all the 38s but generally settle on the L. Where most that fly it do so for its ability to carry ords, I fly it as a pure fighter. It has the dive recovery flap and boosted ailerons. Those extra doodads make it a smidge heavier than the J but otherwise they're identical aircraft. I like the extra kick in roll rate the boosted ailerons give. Any help there is welcome as none of the 38s roll very well. A good kick of rudder helps here too. The 38s pick up speed quickly in dives. Especially so at higher alts. The dive flap comes in handy managing the compression that goes along with diving them. I have the flap and elevator trim mapped to quickly respond and keep control.

The G is the greater turner of the bunch. Lacking the extra systems and carrying less internal fuel than the others make it a lighter bird however with shorter legs(clean). No WEP means it's not running away and is less capable in the vertical. It's better suited for lower alts. Otherwise it's again the same airframe with the same guns.

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Offline Shuffler

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #10 on: October 29, 2020, 04:51:55 PM »
I fly the J because it make most folks scratch their heads and wonder why. :)
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Offline Badboy

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #11 on: October 30, 2020, 02:25:19 PM »
I have never mastered any aspect of the P-38.  I thought I heard that if one turns off (briefly) one of the engines in a turn it will turn tighter.

Is that true? If yes, please share how the technique is executed.

Are there any other useful P-38 techniques that are unique to that plane that one can work to master?

Hi Slade

You mention that your looking for a technique that helps the P-38 turn tighter and also a useful technique you can try to master... I can offer a suggestion for both.

Firstly, most pilots prefer to begin a fight with at least as much energy as their adversary, and hopefully more. What I'm going to describe is a suggestion for those occasions when you have done everything correctly but have not been able to convert your energy into a decisive advantage.

For example, you engaged a Spitfire in a hard turning fight and as your speed bleeds off and slows down to corner velocity your reach the point where you know that the Spitfire's low speed turning ability is going to become a problem... What can you do next? Well it turns out that many pilots will engage better turning aircraft and fight for several turns, but they are good at knowing just when the escape window is about to close and extend before they get locked into a fight to the death. That's fine once you have already mastered the aircraft and have another agenda, but when you are trying to learn, every fight should be a fight to the death. It is the fastest way to learn and pretty soon the other pilots will be visiting the tower far more often than you.

So, what can you work on to turn the tables once the fight gets slow? The first technique is to master the flaps. You wanted to turn tighter and the flaps will tighten your turn inside that of many other fighters including the Spitfire. The key thing here is that while the P-38 can turn tighter than the Spit, it can't out turn it. The Spitfire can turn at a higher rate, but the P-38 can turn inside it with a tighter radius. So here is how that radius looks:



It turns out that for the P38 the turn rate stays almost the same as the turn radius tightens all the way down to 4 notches of flaps, the last notch also comes with a turn rate penalty as you can see, so as already mentioned its best to avoid that last notch of flaps. So, once your speed gets below corner you need to drop your flaps as fast as you can all the way down to 4 notches, and in order to maintain the turn you should turn slightly nose low. If your opponent goes nose low with you, particular if they aren't using flaps, their speed will increase and their turn circle will open even wider.

However, at that point a good Spitfire pilot won't want to let his speed increase too much to keep their turn as tight as possible and many will either work the throttle or turn nose high, or both and that's where you can try the following technique to cut across the circle.

What you do is to effectively split-S across the circle with the intention of coming up the other side, inside their circle and with a shot as you hang on your prop, as shown below:



As an aside, this doesn't just work in the P-38, I see other players dropping flaps and trying this in a variety of different aircraft, so its a transferable skill.

If you miss the first shot, just come over the top, roll into lead while in the vertical (using your roll rate to effectively out turn a faster turning opponent) then split-S again. It's not easy to get the shot while hanging on the prop at low speed but the combination of the three techniques:

  • Optimal flap employment
  • Going nose low to cut inside and across the bandit's turn circle
  • Ultra low speed gunnery

Are key techniques for you to master and will reward you greatly once you have.

Most importantly, have fun while learning this stuff, and be patient, you will soon learn to recognize when those things are not going to work and will learn how to convert from the attack to a diving extension to try and reset the fight.

A word of caution, the P-38 is one of the biggest targets in the game, so getting slow in densely populated airspace is the kiss of death, so you have more chance of success in a 1v1 situation, and even then while starting to learn the P-38 it will be tough. Getting picked just as you think you are about to succeed will be frustrating. The key thing when learning a new technique is to try and maximize opportunities to practice, even if you know its a one way ticket back to the tower. As long as you learn something each time it will be worth it.

The reward will be, when you eventually become one of those P-38 pilots who can steal the lunch from any pilot who doesn't show the proper respect for the P-38 regardless of who they are or what they are flying.   

Lastly, a final technique to master is the use of the film viewer. Save film of the success and failures and see if you can compare, identify and eradicate errors. Use the recorded and external views with trails and icons turned on and watch key moments in slow motion. In that way the film viewer can accelerate your learning.

Hope that helps...

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Offline Oldman731

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #12 on: October 30, 2020, 03:30:04 PM »
when you are trying to learn, every fight should be a fight to the death.


Words of wisdom.

- oldman (and hey, it seems to me that most any fight I have is a fight to my death)


Offline Owlblink

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #13 on: November 03, 2020, 12:40:50 AM »
Quote
What you do is to effectively split-S across the circle with the intention of coming up the other side, inside their circle and with a shot as you hang on your prop, as shown below:


If I may respectfully interject, and this could just be semantics, But I think maybe Badboy is referring to performing a steep low yo-yo. To my understanding a split S involves two things; converting altitude to speed and changing direction. I only mention this because what the drawing depicts (to me) is more accurately described as a low yo-yo but I am willing to stand corrected.

As pointed out by (I believe) FLS, you are actually not going to get better sustained turn or turn radius with more than 3 flaps, you will observe what feels like an initial increase in turn rate but the drag will hurt you very quickly. If you are level, the extra flaps may help you float a tittle (similar to how an F4U flaps work). I do not have the data points to process this into a graph and both I and FLS may stand to be corrected but either way play around with the flaps and judge for yourself.

Dual throttle does definitely help with hammerheads. Also great for driving around on the runway.

I *think* what the OP may have meant by turning with one engine is role rate. Cutting a throttle can make the 38 do some weird rolling things but it will screw you up far more than any perceived advantages. There have been a number of great 38 pilots in AH (I am not one of them), even one that flies with a mouse, but few if any of them had dual throttle set ups or did weird gamey things like cutting out engines.

The best maneuver for any situation involves judging both your and your combatants energy states, your machine vs your opponent's machine’s capabilities, predicting their moves while trying to catch the potential mark off guard, and maintaining situational awareness. I know that’s a smart arsch answer but it gets you thinking in the right direction over trying to master gimmicks.
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Offline FLS

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Re: P-38 Techniques
« Reply #14 on: November 03, 2020, 09:09:58 AM »
The graph is a little more interesting when it includes the first three flap positions.