Author Topic: References for a course of treatment for Covid  (Read 12570 times)

Offline Brooke

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Re: References for a course of treatment for Covid
« Reply #30 on: December 11, 2020, 02:31:43 AM »
Regarding Ivermectin:

"I want to talk about that we have a solution to this crisis.  There is a drug that is proving to be of miraculous impact.  And when I say 'miracle,' I do not use that term lightly.  And I don't want to be sensationalized when I say that.  That is a scientific recommendation based on mountains of data that has emerged in the last three months."

-- Dr. Pierre Kory, founding member of Front Line Covid-19 Critical Care Alliance, currently in the ICU service at Aurora St. Luke's Medical Center, and former Associate Professor and Chief of Critical Care Service and Medical Director of the Trauma and Life Support Center at the University of Wisconsin.

From his testimony to Congress on Dec. 8, 2020:

https://youtu.be/Tq8SXOBy-4w?t=247

Summary of current data and references to the various studies:

https://covid19criticalcare.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/FLCCC-IVERMECTIN-Summary.pdf

Offline Eagler

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Re: References for a course of treatment for Covid
« Reply #31 on: December 11, 2020, 06:55:27 AM »
Posted that on the page b4 this one...

Gotta wonder why anyone testing positive isn't flooded with this from the very beginning?

Why the big push for a NEW drug when it seems we had plenty to fight it from the start?

Eagler
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Offline NatCigg

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Re: References for a course of treatment for Covid
« Reply #33 on: December 11, 2020, 08:29:18 AM »
The existing protocols to ensure safety and efficacy have not allowed the drug to be approved.  In order to use it it would be off label, putting all risk on the doctor and patient,  and not covered, or recommended, or even approved by insurance companies the heather care system, and government.

Offline Eagler

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Re: References for a course of treatment for Covid
« Reply #34 on: December 11, 2020, 09:44:57 AM »
The existing protocols to ensure safety and efficacy have not allowed the drug to be approved.  In order to use it it would be off label, putting all risk on the doctor and patient,  and not covered, or recommended, or even approved by insurance companies the heather care system, and government.

And what is the delay?

Is it billions some wiil make for the new vaccine that will save us all?

Eagler
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Offline Toad

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Re: References for a course of treatment for Covid
« Reply #35 on: December 13, 2020, 09:01:47 AM »
The existing protocols to ensure safety and efficacy have not allowed the drug to be approved.  In order to use it it would be off label, putting all risk on the doctor and patient,  .

Yet it's been in use around the world and used successfully to combat Covid.
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Offline Eagler

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Re: References for a course of treatment for Covid
« Reply #36 on: December 13, 2020, 10:04:46 AM »
And what is the delay?

Is it billions some will make for the new vaccine that will save us all?

Eagler
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Offline Brooke

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Re: References for a course of treatment for Covid
« Reply #37 on: December 13, 2020, 09:43:48 PM »
Oh, dear.

Dr. Kory's testimony to Congress about the effectiveness of Ivermectin has gathered too much notice.

We can't (for obvious reasons) have the plebians knowing about Ivermectin.

Time for some marching orders to media, and a smear campaign to nip this Ivermectin thing in the bud:

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-afs:Content:9768999400

(Note that if you, like author Beatrice Dupuy, purport that "no evidence" = "clinical trials documented on clinicaltrials.gov, various published randomized control trials, and various published retrospective observational studies" -- perhaps you, too, can be helpful to the cause.)

Fnord.


Offline MORAY37

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Re: References for a course of treatment for Covid
« Reply #38 on: December 14, 2020, 03:03:48 AM »
Oh, dear.

Dr. Kory's testimony to Congress about the effectiveness of Ivermectin has gathered too much notice.

We can't (for obvious reasons) have the plebians knowing about Ivermectin.

Time for some marching orders to media, and a smear campaign to nip this Ivermectin thing in the bud:

https://apnews.com/article/fact-checking-afs:Content:9768999400

(Note that if you, like author Beatrice Dupuy, purport that "no evidence" = "clinical trials documented on clinicaltrials.gov, various published randomized control trials, and various published retrospective observational studies" -- perhaps you, too, can be helpful to the cause.)

Fnord.

Brooke, you really don't have to go any further than what the ACTUAL research states:

"However, pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic studies suggest that achieving the plasma concentrations necessary for the antiviral efficacy detected in vitro would require administration of doses up to 100-fold higher than those approved for use in humans.8,9"

Yes, Ivermectin has show promise in lab experiments.  So has U.V. light.  So has exposure to 100 C temperatures. Can we us any of those in a human body at safe and effective levels????

That doesn't mean that we shouldn't look into the efficacy in humans, certainly in concert with other treatments..... but pushing a conspiracy theory over it really does go too far... ie "marching orders".  You can't always just take something because it worked in a petri dish, and turn it around into "safe and simple" treatment.  And yes, I read the actual research from first page to last page; feel free to do so as well.  Here are three papers printed in June.

https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0166354220302011
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S1201971220325066
https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/pii/S0924857920304684
« Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 03:13:25 AM by MORAY37 »
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Offline Brooke

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Re: References for a course of treatment for Covid
« Reply #39 on: December 14, 2020, 06:29:59 AM »
Moray, I understand the material.  I have a Ph.D. from Caltech and have worked in biotech for more than two decades (in companies working in the fields of human diagnostics, viral infectious disease, and molecular biology).  I also study techniques of persuasion, including ones from the slimier end of the field (as discussed  in material by Cialdini, Bernays, Adams, and Attkisson, among others).

This does not mean I'm always right -- I'm not.  But I mention the above in hopes that we can skip where you try to convince me that I'm misunderstanding the material.

Here's what we have:

1.  There is substantial, clearly presented evidence that supports the usefulness of Ivermectin.
2.  The AP article employs standard smear techniques, obvious and familiar to anyone who knows that stuff.

Do I know that there is an agenda?  No.  But:

-- The claim that there is no evidence is either an absurd whopper of a lie or a surprising level of idiocy.  I don't think that AP writers are likely to be actual idiots.  But it is common for media (on all sides) to serve up absurd whoppers.
-- Various standard smear techniques don't write themselves.  It takes intentional work.

Regarding your specific technical comments, you jump right to the in vitro study.  That shows you have some technical knowledge.  Then you presumably know that:
1.  In vivo and in vitro are highly different environments.
2.  There are cases where something works in vitro but not in vivo.
3.  And vice versa.
4.  What matters is in vivo.  It is what proves or disproves efficacy.
5.  In vitro comparatively speaking doesn't matter.  It helps as a screen (which is irrelevant once you are at in vivo stage), and it helps find mechanism of action sometimes, but not always.

Yet in making your argument, you focus on the in vitro study, skip what matters most (the in vivo efficacy), and use a fallacious reasoning technique to support a position that is contradicted by data in humans. 

The logical fallacy you use is the association fallacy, and you are using it like this:  A worked in the lab.  B worked in the lab.  But B won't work on full humans.  Therefore, A won't work in full humans.

-----------------------------------------------

All of this is like the following.

People are starving to death.

Researchers find that putting hunks of fish into a petri dish of human cells doesn't avoid starvation of the cells unless only glucose is extracted from the fish first, and that glucose put into the petri dish.  They conclude that fish as a food might be impractical, because it might require eating 42 pounds of fish in one sitting to get enough glucose.

Other researchers find that feeding a fish to an actual human does ward off starvation.  They do 50 experiments in clinical trials, RCT's, and OCT's, all of which show that eating fish works great.  They put together a document that lists the one in vitro experiment and the 50 in vivo studies.  One of the researchers testifies to Congress.

As a result, a reporter writes an article stating "there is no evidence that eating fish works as a food source".  She goes on to use various standard smear techniques to support her statement.

Maybe coincidentally, it turns out that there is a large industry that is working on an expensive new, proprietary food source as a solution.  That industry commonly pays lots of money to the media for advertising (etc.).  There are also other large, powerful organizations with vested interest in the proprietary food source working out.  And the nation is saturated to the gills with partisanship and intense battles (both overt and covert) over agendas on all sides.

I say that I think the author is a shill (as I don't think that she's like to be a moron or that smear techniques appear write themselves into articles).

Moray points out the one in vitro study, and dismisses the 50 in vivo studies, adding "You know what else had promising lab experiments?  Bathing human cells in glycol and freezing them at -80C.  You think we can pump a human full of glycol and freeze him to -80?  See?  Eating fish probably doesn't work because freezing a human to -80 wouldn't work."
« Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 07:26:59 AM by Brooke »

Offline Brooke

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Re: References for a course of treatment for Covid
« Reply #40 on: December 14, 2020, 07:12:17 AM »
Moray, can you tell me, do you think the following is true or false?

If Ivermectin works well and the public widely knows that, many people might forgo getting the vaccine, thinking that they'll just use Ivermectin if they get Covid.  In that case, the world would be better off if Ivermectin didn't work well, or (even if Ivermectin did work) the world would be better off if people didn't know that or didn't believe that.

Offline Eagler

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Re: References for a course of treatment for Covid
« Reply #41 on: December 14, 2020, 07:30:50 AM »
Sounds like they had to have the hospitalization number as high as possible...you know just like now!

Nothing scares the pants off many ppl more than having the same blurry grainy picture of some seriously ill old person struggling to breathe on a ventilator as the 250lb nurses look on ... pop up on the tv cable news every hour of everyday...

It would have been much better IMO if the media was somewhat believeable before it started and it was not timed for an election year...

Eagler
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Offline Shuffler

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Re: References for a course of treatment for Covid
« Reply #42 on: December 14, 2020, 12:02:14 PM »
(SNIP)

This does not mean I'm always right -- I'm not. 

(/SNIP)

Sorry to cut so much but this is probably the most important piece you posted. No one is "ALWAYS" right. In the case of covid, it is obvious that many are still grabbing at straws. Even the most learned of our medical individuals are trying to determine exactly what is going on and how to combat it. Eventually we will get there.

The problem is all the info/warnings we get that really turns out to be missteps. Later to be changed, dropped, re-instated, dropped again completely. Liken it to weather warnings over and over when there turns out to be no storm. Folks get tired of it and begin to ignore the warnings as more half cocked suggestions.

Add to that CDC numbers that show covid is being blamed for more victims, with equal numbers of from other causes dropping. People just end up shaking their head and watching the circus.
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Offline Eagler

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Re: References for a course of treatment for Covid
« Reply #43 on: December 14, 2020, 12:34:54 PM »
Its all about "sensationalizing the news" (and weather)  except they are very bias in their attempts and this has become very obvious to record numbers of ppl in record time due to current events

Eagler
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Offline MORAY37

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Re: References for a course of treatment for Covid
« Reply #44 on: December 14, 2020, 05:19:16 PM »
Moray, I understand the material.  I have a Ph.D. from Caltech and have worked in biotech for more than two decades (in companies working in the fields of human diagnostics, viral infectious disease, and molecular biology).  I also study techniques of persuasion, including ones from the slimier end of the field (as discussed  in material by Cialdini, Bernays, Adams, and Attkisson, among others).

This does not mean I'm always right -- I'm not.  But I mention the above in hopes that we can skip where you try to convince me that I'm misunderstanding the material.

Here's what we have:

1.  There is substantial, clearly presented evidence that supports the usefulness of Ivermectin.
2.  The AP article employs standard smear techniques, obvious and familiar to anyone who knows that stuff.

Do I know that there is an agenda?  No.  But:

-- The claim that there is no evidence is either an absurd whopper of a lie or a surprising level of idiocy.  I don't think that AP writers are likely to be actual idiots.  But it is common for media (on all sides) to serve up absurd whoppers.
-- Various standard smear techniques don't write themselves.  It takes intentional work.

Regarding your specific technical comments, you jump right to the in vitro study.  That shows you have some technical knowledge.  Then you presumably know that:
1.  In vivo and in vitro are highly different environments.
2.  There are cases where something works in vitro but not in vivo.
3.  And vice versa.
4.  What matters is in vivo.  It is what proves or disproves efficacy.
5.  In vitro comparatively speaking doesn't matter.  It helps as a screen (which is irrelevant once you are at in vivo stage), and it helps find mechanism of action sometimes, but not always.

Yet in making your argument, you focus on the in vitro study, skip what matters most (the in vivo efficacy), and use a fallacious reasoning technique to support a position that is contradicted by data in humans. 

The logical fallacy you use is the association fallacy, and you are using it like this:  A worked in the lab.  B worked in the lab.  But B won't work on full humans.  Therefore, A won't work in full humans.

-----------------------------------------------

All of this is like the following.

People are starving to death.

Researchers find that putting hunks of fish into a petri dish of human cells doesn't avoid starvation of the cells unless only glucose is extracted from the fish first, and that glucose put into the petri dish.  They conclude that fish as a food might be impractical, because it might require eating 42 pounds of fish in one sitting to get enough glucose.

Other researchers find that feeding a fish to an actual human does ward off starvation.  They do 50 experiments in clinical trials, RCT's, and OCT's, all of which show that eating fish works great.  They put together a document that lists the one in vitro experiment and the 50 in vivo studies.  One of the researchers testifies to Congress.

As a result, a reporter writes an article stating "there is no evidence that eating fish works as a food source".  She goes on to use various standard smear techniques to support her statement.

Maybe coincidentally, it turns out that there is a large industry that is working on an expensive new, proprietary food source as a solution.  That industry commonly pays lots of money to the media for advertising (etc.).  There are also other large, powerful organizations with vested interest in the proprietary food source working out.  And the nation is saturated to the gills with partisanship and intense battles (both overt and covert) over agendas on all sides.

I say that I think the author is a shill (as I don't think that she's like to be a moron or that smear techniques appear write themselves into articles).

Moray points out the one in vitro study, and dismisses the 50 in vivo studies, adding "You know what else had promising lab experiments?  Bathing human cells in glycol and freezing them at -80C.  You think we can pump a human full of glycol and freeze him to -80?  See?  Eating fish probably doesn't work because freezing a human to -80 wouldn't work."


Well, it's unusual to see my fellow PhD's associating with and brandishing conspiracy theories about.  What a reporter writes within any science field is most often not fully indicative of what the actual study pertains to.  If you've worked in the field for that long this is something you know. I've had work of mine used to show the exact opposite of what the published paper concluded, by journalists who lacked the training to completely decipher the material...Which is why most PI's now require sign off on any story that is disseminated publicly.... but I digress..

As I've stated before, the only way out of where we are is the employment of an effective vaccine.  Therapeutics, like this, are not going to end the pandemic. Also, if you have training in immunology, you know that the longer you expose this virus to the petri dish that are 7.6 billion human bodies, you allow for the emergence of point mutations through natural selection. Thankfully, this isn't an influenza virus that shoots out mutations every couple weeks... there's only a third major mutation emerging now, in the U.K.

Ivermectin is not an antiviral; it is an antibiotic used for treatment of parasites, antihelmintics.  Ivermectin doesn't do anything to the SARS-CoV-2 virus; it gums up the replication process in our own ribosomal subunit.  It also need a very high dose to do so, possibly 100x higher than what has been shown safe in our species.

There haven't been any double blind efforts for this drug.  All the anecdotal statements aside, doctors in those were throwing everything against the wall at the same time.  There were remdisivir regimens run at the same time as Ivermectin AND Hydroxychloroquine.  And still, there was no decrease in hospital stay to the mean, and only a slight decrease in mortality of the most serious cases. (p=.03)  There was not a faster resolution of the infection, nor a discernible change in the disease course.  Since you have that much training in science, then you most certainly know that you need more work to show anything worthwhile here.

Like I said, I agree it should be looked at.  But, if all you're doing is forcing a selection event, you really aren't doing anything at all.   

« Last Edit: December 14, 2020, 05:26:30 PM by MORAY37 »
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