P-38 Flaps

[atlau]

Good post badboy. Do you have your diagrams posted anywhere?

[FLS]

Badboy I agree with your points about real fighter pilots. My comments were for Aces High players who typically lack the formal knowledge that's mandatory for military pilots.

[Puma44]

Well said Badboy, and spot on! 

[Shuffler]

The key thing to remember about the kind of information we are discussing is that to the military it is vital intelligence, to game players it might seem less important, perhaps just nice to have. However, for a business hoping to grow a player base, it is a little more than that. So this comment surprised me:

This game has always had a steep learning curve. It takes time before new players figure out how to kill more and die less and thus take pleasure in success and enjoy the game more fully. That is a major factor in the high player attrition rate. Learning by trial and error is time consuming and while it is essential to be able to learn from our mistakes, because they are impossible to avoid, a key idea in education and training is to control how much of that is really necessary.

Unfortunately learning from mistakes isn’t always possible. I’ve encountered AH vets with many years’ experience consistently being out turned in their favorite aircraft because they didn’t know the best configuration as revealed after consulting an EM diagram. The problem with trial and error is that the outcome of a 1v1 engagement is the combination of pilot ability, initial conditions and aircraft performance. That means you may think you have learned something about an aircraft after lengthy trial and error, only to discover that it had more to do with the other factors after all. That may be why we see so much frustration and unwarranted accusations in the MA, even among seasoned players.
 
Even when mistakes aren’t fatal, they can often be costly. That’s why it’s called learning the hard way. Fortunately in a gaming environment the costs are mostly trivial such as a loss of perks, mission objectives, and enjoyment. More importantly, in a gaming environment I would argue that the most important loss is the time required before players can enjoy the game enough to continue playing long term.

Dale has referred to this attrition of new players coming into the game as being like baby turtles trying to make it to the sea, very few new players survive to return. That’s why every form of assistance that reduces the learning curve, including speed charts, climb charts and doghouse plots are all absolutely necessary.

I would be confident in saying that every fighter pilot who has used doghouse plots since they were first used to compare the Spitfire and 109 engagement back in 1940, would consider them necessary and disagree with your sentiment. Indeed, when the method was first shared with the USA it was quickly used to provide intelligence from as early as 1943 and continues to have a profound influence on fighter tactics to this day.
 
Of course some lessons can be learned by trial and error eventually, but really… who would deliberately choose to die repeatedly to discover something they could have learned more quickly and easily before taking off. Trial and error is a slow and difficult process so in a game where reducing the learning curve is vital for player retention, I would suggest an idea like this is exactly what is necessary.

They can do but the real tendency in a dogfight over time, as each pilot exchanges energy for position, is to get lower and more horizontal. As speed and altitude are depleted fights tend to the horizontal. Everyone ends a fight in flat turns on the deck at some point. The more evenly matched the pilots and aircraft are, the more often it happens. The more often it happens, the more important a good understanding of EM theory becomes.
 
Of course, an aircraft with a Ps advantage, can climb during a hard turn relative to an opponent but where in the envelope that capability exists, and against which aircraft can most readily be seen on an EM diagram. Knowing when you can do that and when you can’t, without having to die over and over to figure it out is why EM charts are necessary.

All good pilots monitor their speed and G constantly during a dogfight. Not by looking at gauges, but in relative terms in comparison to whichever aircraft they are engaged with. For example, in terms of speed, having a sense of being too fast or too slow using external visual cues is key to success. Similarly with g loading, most pilots know that pulling too hard can be as bad as not pulling hard enough and they use external visual cues to monitor that constantly. The EM diagram is vital in that regard because an overlay shows at a glance if you have a turning advantage at lower speeds or higher so thinking in relative terms is key. For example, an overlay of the Ps curves for the P-51D and Me 109G6 reveals that while the 109G6 can easily out turn the P-51D at low speed, the P-51D can out turn the Me 109G6 at all speeds above 190mph. That can be seen from the point where the two Ps = 0 curve cross. The P-51D pilot doesn’t need to look at his gauge to know when he reaches that point because as they are fighting his visual cue for speed will be whether or not he appears to be gaining angles. While he is gaining, he knows his turn rate is higher and speed is therefore above that critical point, once the 109 begins to gain angles he knows he’s too slow.

The EM diagram also showed him that because he has a Ps advantage at higher speed, along with a higher top speed he has the choice to either zoom climb converting that excess power to an altitude advantage or extending and converting that excess power to acceleration and speed, depending on what else is happening around him. Many pilots learn to do this in a less precise manner without EM diagram overlays. But knowing what speeds are involved, what turn rates and if they are decisive or not and how steeply you can climb while turning and still match your opponent’s turn rate all add a degree of certainty and confidence that can lead players to enjoy the game more fully in a far shorter time.

Those things can all be learned quickly and with confidence from EM diagram overlays. Of course they can also be learned from trial and error, in some cases it can be painfully slow with much less certainty, if at all. The cost, is that the learning curve remains steep and new player attrition and levels of frustration remains high.

The scientific method used in WWII and elevated to new heights by John Boyd in the early 60's can reduce the learning curve and lead to a higher level of success and thus enjoyment in a shorter period of time. I've been sharing this information for a long time, and for many it has made the learning process enjoyable in its own right and in every case has helped improve their flying and made it more successful and enjoyable.

Sorry, but I've typed (and rambled) a little more than I intended, so in closing I would just like to add this:

I believe that AH already has an incredibly knowledgeable, well informed, talented and skillful player base. But sadly that player base seems to have stopped growing. The potential benefit for everyone in extending information and help to both new and old players alike would seem to be anything but unnecessary.

Kind regards

Badboy

And so it is written..........   

[Rich46yo]

We had some real P38 drivers back in the day. Shuffler you'd remember them. How many are still around?

I mostly bomb trucked with them and never really learned to fly them right. I think I'll spend more time in them now.

We had a couple guys who always flew "J"'s in tandem. I forget who but they not only knew what they where doing they also made sure you were never just fighting one of them. Very difficult to face two P38 nose guns.

The Japanese film of Yamamoto showed the attack scene at the end and it showed the P38's at their best, upended in the slashing vertical. Keep their speed up. Its a hard film to find but the scene is worth it.

[Badboy]

The Japanese film of Yamamoto showed the attack scene at the end and it showed the P38's at their best, upended in the slashing vertical. Keep their speed up. Its a hard film to find but the scene is worth it.

Is it on youtube?

Badboy

[hazmatt]

Where might one find these: "doghouse plots" for the modeling of the planes here?

There is more than one best performance. There is best sustained turn rate and radius, and best instantaneous turn rate and radius. The question is which one was being referred to in the source you read?

I generally refer to best sustained values because that is where aircraft in AH usually end up in a protracted turning engagement, but historically I believe that instantaneous values are more likely to have been referred to because that was more important to real pilots for the following reasons.

• That point on the envelope was closer to what could be achieved in high speed attacks
• The turn rate at corner is significantly higher than sustained values
• Staying at speeds at or above corner velocity improved survivability
• Typical pilot G tolerance meant sustained turning engagements were less desirable
• Typical relative aircraft performance in the pacific theater made sustained turning less desirable
• High speed attacks with brief (high G) tracking shots were therefore more common

With that in mind, I would be more than a little surprised if any real design was based on sustained performance values.

If you look at the positions of those two performance points on the EM diagram below you can see that while the best sustained turn occurs at 4 notches of flaps, the best instantaneous turn occurs at 3 notches of flaps at a corner velocity of 236mph and just inside the flap limit of 250mph at that setting, which seems to correspond to what you have read.

(Image removed from quote.)

When I did this back in the day I recall thinking that this was yet another fine example of the excellent AH flight model and the high standard of indepth research done by HTC

Hope that helps

Badboy

[Rich46yo]

Is it on youtube?

Badboy

Naw but you can maybe find it on one of those free movie sights "not that I would do such a thing".

Its in captions and really kind of propaganda. Yamamoto Was not as genius tho I guess I cant blame the Japanese for revering him. The entire General staff knew they couldn't beat America, they saw the numbers. They war gamed it and then did a fugazzi to make it look like they could win. His entire Midway plan was one of the most flawed military plans in History.

The film shows him as a calm, sober family man as well. In truth, like all the power players in Japan, Yamamoto was a geisha loving, booze loving, and sometimes violent man. He once beat up Nagumo in a drunken fight at a Geisha house. But physical violence was normal in the Japanese military at the time. For that matter we got into fist fights in USAF all the time to and it was tolerated as long as you weren't on duty, under arms. But the IJA and IJN were legendary for their violence.

The name of the film is "Yamamoto". Its well acted and worth watching. The P-38 scene is great. Oh look, here the scene. Enjoy. https://youtu.be/_aevBLinEvY

Oh yeah, just watched it again. Beautiful CGI of Betty's and Zero's too. A short but Lovely scene and the slashing P-38s were dramatic and beautiful. My goal after retiring was learning more about the Pacific war and why in hell Japan would start a war they knew they were going to Lose.

Despite his flaw's, which we all have, I think Yamamoto did have personal Honor and he exposed himself to those forward bases for the same reason MacArthur and Churchill always exposed themselves. Yamamoto felt a deep personal sense of responsibility for the Loss at Midway and other setbacks and just wanted to die as a fighting sailor.

MacArthur always felt inner shame for the train wreck of the Phillipines and what happened to Manila, the beloved city of his youth. MacArthur loved the Philippines and its people and he drove his security people nuts by going up to the very front lines and exposing himself to fire, I believe, out of guilt.

Churchill same, same. Churchill used to always ignore air raid sirens and expose himself to bombing. He used to sit on roof tops watching bombing attacks. He too felt deep responsibility for a number of failed campaigns like the Gallipoli disaster and Norway. Later Dieppe. Also the sinking of Prince of Whales, Repulse, and Hood. Winston loved the battlewagons and naval ships of all kinds.

Anyhoo Im rambling. Never get a Military History buff rolling while on caffeine. I hope you enjoy the scene.

[Badboy]

The P-38 scene is great. Oh look, here the scene. Enjoy.

Thanks for the link, much appreciated.

I also enjoyed your perspective on the characters involved. I too am a keen student of history, and like you retirement has given me the opportunity to expand my reading.

Even if I confine myself to WWII military aviation, there is still enough material to fill several retirements. So I tend to cherry pick material relating to aircraft performance and the resulting influence on the air combat of that time. That's why I found the video particularly interesting, and of course the P-38 has always been a big favourite of mine. So thanks again.

Kind regards

Badboy

[Badboy]

Where might one find these: "doghouse plots" for the modeling of the planes here?

Everything I've done has been posted on these boards over the last twenty years. Because the images were mostly linked to free image hosting sites that have since expired, almost all them have disappeared over time. Sadly, that not only loses the images, it makes the text they were illustrating of little use either. Of course, I still have everything, and from time to time over the years I've bundled up stuff in zip files and posted links on free file hosting sites here too, but those have suffered the same fate I'm afraid.

Naturally I'm happy to share, so if you are interested in anything I've done in the past just send me a PM, I see what I can dig up for you.

Kind regards

Badboy

[Brooke]

the P-38 has always been a big favourite of mine.

P-38's figure big in the upcoming March Scenario "Leyte". 

I hope that you can join us. 

[atlau]

Everything I've done has been posted on these boards over the last twenty years. Because the images were mostly linked to free image hosting sites that have since expired, almost all them have disappeared over time. Sadly, that not only loses the images, it makes the text they were illustrating of little use either. Of course, I still have everything, and from time to time over the years I've bundled up stuff in zip files and posted links on free file hosting sites here too, but those have suffered the same fate I'm afraid.

Naturally I'm happy to share, so if you are interested in anything I've done in the past just send me a PM, I see what I can dig up for you.

Kind regards

Badboy

Pm incoming

[perdue3]

And so it is written..........   

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