Photo Help Wanted: P-51D “Dakota Kid II” YF*M

[Vraciu]

Trying to find out if the invasion stripes were ever used with this paint scheme (yellow nose band, yellow rudder).   I can’t find anything that shows it. 

Lieutenant Noble Peterson, 355th Fighter Group, 358th Fighter Squadron, Steeple Morden.

Here’s the warbird scheme.   (The nose art is inaccurate as I have photos of the real one.)   









His obituary gives dates of service. 


Noble joined the army on Nov. 6, 1936 and was put on a ship out of San Francisco and sent to Hawaii for basic training and served in the 19th infantry. Noble served in Hawaii for two and a half years until a shoulder injury caused him to be discharged on June 20, 1939. After Pearl Harbor was attacked, Noble knew he would be called up for duty so he reenlisted back in the Army on March 20, 1942 at the same rank he was in prior service, a corporal.

Noble returned to the 11th Armored Battalion but then was sent to Nashville Tenn. for Cadet training. This was the start of Nobles service in the Army Air Corp.

Noble Peterson flew two tours of duty as a Fighter Pilot – the first tour in the “Dakota Kid”, a P-51C. While at home on leave after his first tour, this plane was shot down in Poland while flown by another pilot during a “shuttle bombing” escort mission.

For his second tour he flew a brand new P-51D, this plane was named “Dakota Kid II”. Noble belonged to the 355th Fighter Group, 358th Squadron based at Steeple Morden in Cambridgeshire, England.

On 20 July 1944 Captain Noble Peterson, flying Dakota Kid II, was escorting B-17’s returning from a mission over Leipzig, Germany when around 20 ME-109’s (Messerschmitts) attacked the bomber formation from the rear. Noble was leading the squadron in that quarter and turned the 358th into the enemy planes. Captain Perterson hit a 109 and it started going down with its engine on fire. The German formation had been broken up and were scattered. Noble climbed, going after another 109 that was darting in and out of cloud cover, when his wing man informed him that the first 109 had straightened out. Noble then dove again and as he came up on the smoking Messerschmitt, the pilot bailed out. Noble came around again and flew by the German that was now safely in his parachute. Noble gave him a friendly wave and the German pilot waved back!

Noble flew 106 missions over enemy territory, many of these as squadron commander. He was honorably discharged in 1945. During his service, Noble, was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross with two Oak Leaf Clusters, the Air Medal with one Silver and four Gold Oak Leaf Clusters, and the European/African Campaign Medal with six Stars.

[Devil 505]

http://www.optimalswimming.com/lobohistory/WWII/Lt%20Marcell%20E%20Webb%2044-14498%20yf-s%20Ridge%20Runner.jpg

Looks like a single black stripe to me - assuming the rudder is yellow. There seems to be a yellow band aft of the spinner.

But then again, maybe it's white with some oil stains making it look darker than the spinner.

http://www.optimalswimming.com/lobohistory/WWII/Lt%20William%20Tolby%20Jr%20358%20FS%20P51D%2044-13366%20YF-K%20Darling%20Jane.jpg

Here is pic of definite different colored bands then the spinner with no wing stripe

[Vraciu]

I think YF*S is a white nose and unpainted (silver) rudder.

There are a number of shots showing what yours show, namely that those planes with yellow paint did not have invasion stripes. 




My wings are the best part of my skins any way so not having them cluttered up with striping has its benefits.   Still, the stripes are a nice look, too. 

[Vraciu]

If the first Dakota Kid had invasion stripes I doubt the second did.

[Mister Fork]

If the first Dakota Kid had invasion stripes I doubt the second did.

(Image removed from quote.)

That's pretty much the only photo I can find because DKII has flooded the space with pictures from airshows.

Are we in agreeance that aircraft paint schemes are only accurate to the timeframe they are being introduced? Like V said, any new aircraft painted AFTER D-Day would not have invasion stripes. And therefore setting the skin to a date - i.e. this is Dakota Kid II as of July, 1944 - sans stripes? He did fly that plane to the end of the war, no? 

What isn't clear if he DKII was active before D-Day or after. The note above shows a July timeframe, a month and half after D-day and if it was new to him then, it would of been without stripes.

And can we also all agree that stripes often shown on historical drawings of airplanes and airshow warbirds are not for historical accuracy but because it makes the aircraft look better?

[Vraciu]

Yeah, warbird owners definitely take liberties most of the time.   This plane strikes me as a composite of his B and D with other stuff thrown in.   

The only other thought I have is what depot MX was up to.   There were quite a few airplanes with various incarnations of striping for just about the entirety of the war, even post-D-Day.

Would his new D have been striped at the depot and just been already through the pipeline when he got it?

[Devil 505]

That's pretty much the only photo I can find because DKII has flooded the space with pictures from airshows.

Are we in agreeance that aircraft paint schemes are only accurate to the timeframe they are being introduced? Like V said, any new aircraft painted AFTER D-Day would not have invasion stripes. And therefore setting the skin to a date - i.e. this is Dakota Kid II as of July, 1944 - sans stripes? He did fly that plane to the end of the war, no? 

What isn't clear if he DKII was active before D-Day or after. The note above shows a July timeframe, a month and half after D-day and if it was new to him then, it would of been without stripes.

And can we also all agree that stripes often shown on historical drawings of airplanes and airshow warbirds are not for historical accuracy but because it makes the aircraft look better?

I'm currently reading "An Ace of the Eighth" written by Bud Fortier, who was a pilot in the 355 FG. He mentions that the group commander, Major Claiborne Kinnard claimed one of the first P-51D delivered to the 355th in early July. It's pretty well documented that the invasion stripes were commonly seen well after D-day its self. The question is were the first batch of D models painted with stripes, and was the yellow nose band in use at the same time - which looks to me like a 'no' as far as the band goes.

[lyric1]

If the first Dakota Kid had invasion stripes I doubt the second did.

(Image removed from quote.)

Before D-day or long after & stripped of stripes before crashing?

[lyric1]

Before D-day or long after & stripped of stripes before crashing?

(Image removed from quote.)

Based off this D model image I would say before stripes.

[lyric1]

Based off this D model image I would say before stripes.

(Image removed from quote.)

Even later in November.

[lyric1]

Even later in November.

(Image removed from quote.)

Jan 1945 none on this one same plane as the above image as well.

[Vraciu]

I'm currently reading "An Ace of the Eighth" written by Bud Fortier, who was a pilot in the 355 FG. He mentions that the group commander, Major Claiborne Kinnard claimed one of the first P-51D delivered to the 355th in early July. It's pretty well documented that the invasion stripes were commonly seen well after D-day its self. The question is were the first batch of D models painted with stripes, and was the yellow nose band in use at the same time - which looks to me like a 'no' as far as the band goes.

I read that book a few years back and started to skin BF's plane.   Interesting point. 

[Vraciu]

Based off this D model image I would say before stripes.

(Image removed from quote.)

Is that rudder silver?


It's astonishing how so many photos out there screw up the very thing you're looking for.   It's uncanny.

[Devil 505]

Based off this D model image I would say before stripes.

(Image removed from quote.)

There is no before in this case. The 355th did not have any D models until a month after D-day. The only question is what level of invasion striping was being painted on new planes in July. Stripes on the lower surfaces is definitely possible for the first batch of 51D's.

I think we need to nail down two facts.

When was the last known date of a 355th Fighter Group D model with wing stripes

When did the 358th Fighter Squadron begin using the yellow band.

Id's say it's not even a plausible situation unless there is some tangible proof that the yellow band was adopted before the last known date of another plane still having the stripes.

 

[Vraciu]

There is no before in this case. The 355th did not have any D models until a month after D-day. The only question is what level of invasion striping was being painted on new planes in July. Stripes on the lower surfaces is definitely possible for the first batch of 51D's.

I think we need to nail down two facts.

When was the last known date of a 355th Fighter Group D model with wing stripes

When did the 358th Fighter Squadron begin using the yellow band.

Id's say it's not even a plausible situation unless there is some tangible proof that the yellow band was adopted before the last known date of another plane still having the stripes.

That well-known series of color photos with gaggles of WR (red and white squadron marking) Mustangs show no stripes.   



http://www.asisbiz.com/il2/P-51D-Mustang/P-51D-355FG354FS-WR-S/images/USAAF-sn-44-15625-P-51D-15-Mustang-8AF-355FG354FS-WR-S-1944-01.jpg



https://www.swissmustangs.ch/var/m_7/71/71f/28906/9463685-44-72462.w1024.jpg







This photo is allegedly a new delivery to the group but I can't prove that..   It's an earlier D than the the one in question. 



https://i.pinimg.com/originals/4d/39/73/4d397386473726709401f934828c008d.jpg



I just can't find a single stripe on any airplane with yellow markings.   The lack of wing stripes may make the scheme unique in and of itself I guess, but it's sorta plain.   May not be worth taking up a slot.



https://i.pinimg.com/originals/b8/a1/fc/b8a1fcf99730b360c4d32c0c488447fc.png