Author Topic: 4 maps that need to go  (Read 8128 times)

Offline SmokinLoon

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Re: 4 maps that need to go
« Reply #30 on: April 21, 2021, 11:27:37 AM »
Mindanoa is the absolute worst map.

The others are least offer a balanced approach.

I vote if a map has to go it needs to be Mindanao.
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Offline icepac

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Re: 4 maps that need to go
« Reply #31 on: April 21, 2021, 11:38:00 AM »
CraterMA is small enough that I can take off a me163 and dogfight over the center before gliding to a landing at a tank base or get shot down doing it.

Offline svaalbar

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Re: 4 maps that need to go
« Reply #32 on: April 21, 2021, 05:12:20 PM »
Hey Kenai - I checked out your two maps today.

3Points - I like it, but feel like it could get into a stalemate in off-time hours with the long flight times like KONG mentioned if theres no beachhead

TexArk looks too big for our current MA numbers, maybe even in Prime Time... but what do I know, I've never made map :)

Nice work to both you and KONG - I want to play on these maps ASAP!
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Offline waystin2

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Re: 4 maps that need to go
« Reply #33 on: April 21, 2021, 05:37:53 PM »
I think the issue is low population, not naps.
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Offline JimmyD3

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Re: 4 maps that need to go
« Reply #34 on: April 21, 2021, 10:35:11 PM »
Thanks for the feedback Svaalbar. You did notice on 3points, I changed the island vbases to small air bases, right? That should start it off. 3points has 33 bases per country and texark has 32, that's 7 bases per country to roll the map.

Need to add clouds to my 2, Kong sent me a note to get me started.
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: 4 maps that need to go
« Reply #35 on: April 22, 2021, 12:56:23 AM »
I think the issue is low population, not naps.

naps are good way  :rofl


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Offline guncrasher

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Re: 4 maps that need to go
« Reply #36 on: April 22, 2021, 12:58:03 AM »
I think the issue is low population, not naps.

naps are good way  :rofl


semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline nrshida

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Re: 4 maps that need to go
« Reply #37 on: April 22, 2021, 04:00:42 AM »
I think the issue is low population, not naps.

I think maps and gameplay opportunities which were mostly designed for a larger population, in combination with low numbers, amplifies the most common complaint found in external reviews of AH: poor and inequitable gameplay. A low-risk approach is now far too supported by the disposition of the MA. The last time I was in (Euro daytime) it was not uncommon to see planes of all and any types diving away and running to ack when encountering any another plane co-e or after a single merge to evaluate if they had advantage or not.

With this architecture, a combat-avoidant, low-risk approach is always advantageous. Higher risk combat-based skill-approach is occasionally advantageous. Thus a trend is set and over time the latter faction has diluted away. Diluted away mostly to other games apparently as air combat is evidently popular. Furthermore challenge is what younger players seek, not ease and certainty. That's a fundamental generational misunderstanding. Projection I think the psychologists call it  :)

Congruent, another factor is in play. The quality of ACM has degraded along with the loss of those players. Now for the most part (notable and interesting exceptions aside) you have highly effective players (not highly-skilled players, there's a subtle difference). You can do things and watch their OODA loop on a hair trigger snap to EGRESS. Now take the experiential perspective of a newer player, if you can. One unfamiliar with the specific nuances of the MA which facilitate that approach. That's hard to set aside years of experience and indoctrination to imagine that.

One could take the analogy of a 1970s toaster: underdone, underdone, underdone, burned. That threshold area of 'just right' is far too narrow in the MA. There's two reasons no one buys a 1970's toaster anymore...


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Offline waystin2

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Re: 4 maps that need to go
« Reply #38 on: April 22, 2021, 09:54:31 AM »
I do like the highly skilled vs highly effective player descriptions. Makes perfect sense. In FSO I always tried to be highly effective, while in the melee you let worries go and just get into the moment. This is where the skill is built. Also what can make you a more effective pilot in events when virtual death and results matter.
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Offline Hajo

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Re: 4 maps that need to go
« Reply #39 on: April 22, 2021, 10:21:34 AM »
Maps and population, as well as game play, have a huge bearing on this subject.  Naturally the more people participating makes the game play more attractive.  The variations on how one wishes to play the game are wide.  Low numbers and differing ideas have an impact.  We can not tell how someone should play the game.  We, back some years ago, had many more people playing on a map. So playing in ones prefered style was easy to find.  One could join the win the war folks and take bases or strctly air combat.  We could also get involved in the ground war.  The Map wasn't such a big deal then.  Now since the population has declined one style effects how the other two styles are affected.  Say the majority are playing in vehicles, it makes it harder to find an air to air fight.  However taking a base fight can combine all three with defense, air to air and a ground fight.  Some players do not wish to play that way.  Some who want to take a base will just go to another base easier to take.  That kills the fight but pleases those who wish to take bases unopposed.

It's a conundrum to be sure.  So I also agree with above statements that it is not the map it's the lack of participants.  Easier to tly successful bombing missions in the AM US time as compared to the evening when the population is twice as large.

Just a few random thoughts.
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Offline Wiley

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Re: 4 maps that need to go
« Reply #40 on: April 22, 2021, 11:19:39 AM »
The last couple years have made me into a big believer in shorter distances between bases to encourage A2A engagement.  You can pretty much set your clock to the air battles being less frequent and intense on the maps that have the fields spaced further apart.  This is a map problem that is magnified by low numbers, often to an intolerable level.  If I log in and see 3 enemy aircraft active on my country's front in 3 different sectors, I log.  I'm sure that's not an uncommon reaction.

Apparently it's seen as not that big of an issue though.

Wiley.
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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: 4 maps that need to go
« Reply #41 on: April 22, 2021, 11:56:33 AM »
I think the issue is low population, not naps.

Maps and population, as well as game play, have a huge bearing on this subject.  Naturally the more people participating makes the game play more attractive.  The variations on how one wishes to play the game are wide.  Low numbers and differing ideas have an impact.  We can not tell how someone should play the game.  We, back some years ago, had many more people playing on a map. So playing in ones prefered style was easy to find.  One could join the win the war folks and take bases or strctly air combat.  We could also get involved in the ground war.  The Map wasn't such a big deal then.  Now since the population has declined one style effects how the other two styles are affected.  Say the majority are playing in vehicles, it makes it harder to find an air to air fight.  However taking a base fight can combine all three with defense, air to air and a ground fight.  Some players do not wish to play that way.  Some who want to take a base will just go to another base easier to take.  That kills the fight but pleases those who wish to take bases unopposed.

It's a conundrum to be sure.  So I also agree with above statements that it is not the map it's the lack of participants.  Easier to tly successful bombing missions in the AM US time as compared to the evening when the population is twice as large.

Just a few random thoughts.


I think maps and gameplay opportunities which were mostly designed for a larger population, in combination with low numbers, amplifies the most common complaint found in external reviews of AH: poor and inequitable gameplay. A low-risk approach is now far too supported by the disposition of the MA. The last time I was in (Euro daytime) it was not uncommon to see planes of all and any types diving away and running to ack when encountering any another plane co-e or after a single merge to evaluate if they had advantage or not.

With this architecture, a combat-avoidant, low-risk approach is always advantageous. Higher risk combat-based skill-approach is occasionally advantageous. Thus a trend is set and over time the latter faction has diluted away. Diluted away mostly to other games apparently as air combat is evidently popular. Furthermore challenge is what younger players seek, not ease and certainty. That's a fundamental generational misunderstanding. Projection I think the psychologists call it  :)

Congruent, another factor is in play. The quality of ACM has degraded along with the loss of those players. Now for the most part (notable and interesting exceptions aside) you have highly effective players (not highly-skilled players, there's a subtle difference). You can do things and watch their OODA loop on a hair trigger snap to EGRESS. Now take the experiential perspective of a newer player, if you can. One unfamiliar with the specific nuances of the MA which facilitate that approach. That's hard to set aside years of experience and indoctrination to imagine that.

One could take the analogy of a 1970s toaster: underdone, underdone, underdone, burned. That threshold area of 'just right' is far too narrow in the MA. There's two reasons no one buys a 1970's toaster anymore...





All very good points here. I do believe the level of ACM skill has dropped dramatically due to players running to other games that are more suited for quicker air combat. Certain players ruined the "DA" because the ego was just too darn high and it put a lot of people off. Now, no one really goes into the DA to fight or learn ACM, and there isn't a very good place for "free fighting" quick action.

I believe planes like the yak3 did it for many people. Just too big of a nuisance and people are tired of fighting 3 of them at the same time. Along with too many good sticks flying in 262s and run planes.

But I do have to say that because of smaller #s, these 4 maps are actually causing the #s to decrease rather than benefit players so more play during off hours. I believe these maps during off hours are off putting to increasing #s. As I've said, its very time consuming to roll at a base with a tiny red dar and hope to find something to shoot at. When everything is all scattered out, or planes are mostly 15-20k, it's time consuming to reach that alt, and hopefully then find something to shoot. When you die quickly after all of that, you have to make a decision, do I want to sit here and climb another 15k, doing nothing for 5 minutes, and then hope I can find another guy to shoot, or hoping I don't get jumped by 3 20k p51s or 2 yak3s. It's things like that that need to be taken into consideration.

Smaller maps would do wonders at keeping players in the game as it goes into off hours. If you are in a big fight, chances are you will play an extra hour to have fun with it. If there is no big fight like on BowlMA going into off hours, you will probably log off early. This keeps #s lower for some maps going into the off hours than others. This means the dars are much smaller, and many are spread out so that action is not condensed. The biggest reason for smaller maps is that they condense the action and provide a good reason to roll in hopes for a good fight. When there are only 2 bases that are important on the current front, that's where the majority of people are going to fight. If there are 10 bases on the current front, like bowlma, everyone is going to spread all over, and you get small dars everywhere. This is not entertaining to the majority of people, so they don't log in, or they sit in the tower waiting all day until something builds up.

If we can find a way to build #s in the off hours, it will do a lot to increasing the overall #s in the main hours. The best way for that is to have maps that are more suited to lower #s. These maps will go a long way.

Again, especially for players who get that 2 weeks free, they don't want to look at huge maps and wonder where the heck to roll. They want to see bigger dars and cons so they know where the action is. If they have to play the same map for 3 days, and every time they log in, it's small dar all over the place, or seemingly no action on their side of the map, they are probably going to hang it up.

I've just noticed that when I play on the weekends, it's about an 80% chance I will get either BowlMA or CraterMA. I presume the majority of 2 week trials mostly play on the weekends. They are stuck with these huge maps and if they aren't playing prime time, the game looks incredibly boring for them. No since in wasting 20 minutes to fly around in circles hoping to catch 1 plane that you have 0 clue where it is because your radar is down.

I also believe that radars need to be atleast 2K pounds of bombs to be killed. That would tremendously help new players. Players who see tiny dars aren't understanding how many cons there actually are. It just doesn't seem like it's worth it to roll many of times.

Condense the action without 10k mountains to climb over. That is how you build #s again and make the off hours more enjoyable.

« Last Edit: April 22, 2021, 12:00:51 PM by DmonSlyr »
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Offline nrshida

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Re: 4 maps that need to go
« Reply #42 on: April 23, 2021, 10:14:12 AM »
It's tempting to think the air-combat situation would be improved simply by closing the proximity of bases. That would reduce wasted time but brings with it the caveat that you also increase the possibility of solving any ACM problem by holding a little alt in reserve and using that potential energy to get to safety by legging it (running / egressing).

One possibility to have your cake and eat it would be to use gravity to make a 'one way valve' since WW2 aeroplanes have a relatively low climb rate. Bases above 15k on pedestals would no doube raise complaints of unrealism but would mean once you choose to enter the rumble-in-the-jungle section, there's no simple escape route. More realistic or convincing natural terrain could be something like a large diameter caldera with high cliffs and bases halfway down. Imho a surplus of energy is less of a problem to air combat than people melting away at will. Remember others would enter later at a higher energy state, that's just the nature of it. You could even go crazy and have an inverse Escher-like spiral of descending canyons. Ideally you'd cultivate a nice continual and sustainable slow burn of combat opportunity.

Of course I'm suggesting only a section of the map being landscaped to favour air-combat. I know it's not for everyone. I think I've met most of them  :)

Anyway interesting thought. Would be nice if we had a map where a player's $15-o-fun a month did not depend on the exclusive unhappiness of another player's $15-o-misery.

Happy Friday, as Pipz was fond of saying   :banana:

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Offline guncrasher

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Re: 4 maps that need to go
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2021, 12:57:05 AM »
if we get smaller maps, you would see 2 or 3 of them getting rolled in a day, every day.  as for the acm thingy, there's not one player that I know of, from those finishing in the top to the lowest of us who doesnt do everything possible to not get killed. and that includes running to ack or friends.

just spent a few flights in a user arena, had lots of fun.  got to try a pony against f4u's, it was interesting, trying to figure out the stall speed against an f4u. pony can outturn an f4u except if he decides to go up.

semp
you dont want me to ho, dont point your plane at me.

Offline RichardDarkwood

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Re: 4 maps that need to go
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2021, 01:17:52 AM »

All very good points here. I do believe the level of ACM skill has dropped dramatically due to players running to other games that are more suited for quicker air combat. Certain players ruined the "DA" because the ego was just too darn high and it put a lot of people off. Now, no one really goes into the DA to fight or learn ACM, and there isn't a very good place for "free fighting" quick action.

I believe planes like the yak3 did it for many people. Just too big of a nuisance and people are tired of fighting 3 of them at the same time. Along with too many good sticks flying in 262s and run planes.


There are two other arenas right now where you can go in and fight instantly on a small map.
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