Author Topic: Idea for a MA terrain  (Read 666 times)

Offline hazmatt

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Re: Idea for a MA terrain
« Reply #15 on: July 21, 2021, 02:08:19 PM »
I got confused by the shading. Guess I should have had another coffee before I posted.

Good stuff!

Offline Hajo

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Re: Idea for a MA terrain
« Reply #16 on: July 21, 2021, 03:16:57 PM »
Yeah I think a real-world location that is divisible into 3 almost identical areas is very difficult to find.   There will always be differences and variations, my thought was that it might be possible to allow for the differences to exist, as long as one country's shortcomings were made up for by advantages in other areas.   Was trying for rough equivalence, instead of perfect equality.   Don't know if it's possible in a real world setting though.  I was taken by the thought of being able to lift off of real-world locations, and hit real-world targets.   

Here's another real-world location attempt I made, 4 years ago; I got about as far as I did on the ETO terrain:

(Image removed from quote.)

In this terrain, both the Orange and Green navies are divided between two sea areas, while the Yellow navy is a concentrated force.  The Green navy at least has the ability to shuffle fleets between either sea, while the Orange Navy is at a decided disadvantage.  Also the Caucasus Mountains provide something of a natural barrier between Yellow and Orange, although locations of spawn points could compensate for that.  Still, aircraft would have to fly higher to cross the border between Yellow and Orange than they would between the other two borders.

What I like about this one though, is the Fuel Refinery placed at the actual location of the refineries at Ploesti in Romania.



Oboe, jst anothe thought on you suggestion for a map.  You mentioned Poesti.

How about targets such as Krupp Steel amongst other targets on the world map?  Imagine, leading a flight of Bombers over Germany and Japan to damage military production facilities!  The targets if hit and damage is totaled up could effect the targeted counties military production.  A good target for Bombers.  Military production facilities would have to be defended.  They'd be more important in the game as to the current strats do now.  Along with cities of course.  Peenemundee, et.al.  the possibilities are endless.  I believe it would bring more aircraft sorties to the game.  GVs could be used to take cities once bases are captured in enemy territory.

Just another thought that could be expanded on.  <shrugz>.
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Offline GrandpaChaps

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Re: Idea for a MA terrain
« Reply #17 on: July 21, 2021, 04:25:54 PM »

Wow.  Very cool.  Very good points brought up by all on this thread.  I love the idea of real-world terrain, but the points about bases, position, sizes, are fair from a game play perspective.  yet, maybe for AvA arena these would be good one week maps?


What would you guys think of an MA terrain based on real-world geography (although not to scale)?   Typically a game designer would make sure each side has identical territories, and we see that a lot in MA terrains.  But they can be very abstract looking.  Do you think anyone would appreciate a more real-world looking terrain, where a player could for example, up heavy bombers in England and fly a mission to bomb Berlin?   Or fight for control of North Africa, and mount an invasion of Italy?

I don't know anything about MA terrain design, and even less about making a terrain, but how do you guys think this terrain might play out?   Would it even work?    Its a 9x9 size terrain, so a bit smaller than the typical 10x10 MA terrain. 
 
(Image removed from quote.)

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Offline oboe

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Re: Idea for a MA terrain
« Reply #18 on: July 21, 2021, 05:41:12 PM »

Oboe, jst anothe thought on you suggestion for a map.  You mentioned Poesti.

How about targets such as Krupp Steel amongst other targets on the world map?  Imagine, leading a flight of Bombers over Germany and Japan to damage military production facilities!  The targets if hit and damage is totaled up could effect the targeted counties military production.  A good target for Bombers.  Military production facilities would have to be defended.  They'd be more important in the game as to the current strats do now.  Along with cities of course.  Peenemundee, et.al.  the possibilities are endless.  I believe it would bring more aircraft sorties to the game.  GVs could be used to take cities once bases are captured in enemy territory.

Just another thought that could be expanded on.  <shrugz>.

I like your thinkin', Hajo!    I think I placed the City strats at locations of London, Rome, and Berlin for that reason.   

GrandpaChaps, yes, its probably more suited to a 2-sided War like in the AVA.   After all, in the MA I could up a flight of Lancasters or B-17s from England, bomb Berlin, but be shot down by defending Spitfires of Thunderbolts.  That would be an immersion killer that could be avoided in the AvA arena.   


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Offline Wiley

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Re: Idea for a MA terrain
« Reply #19 on: July 21, 2021, 06:18:59 PM »

Oboe, jst anothe thought on you suggestion for a map.  You mentioned Poesti.

How about targets such as Krupp Steel amongst other targets on the world map?  Imagine, leading a flight of Bombers over Germany and Japan to damage military production facilities!  The targets if hit and damage is totaled up could effect the targeted counties military production.  A good target for Bombers.  Military production facilities would have to be defended.  They'd be more important in the game as to the current strats do now.  Along with cities of course.  Peenemundee, et.al.  the possibilities are endless.  I believe it would bring more aircraft sorties to the game.  GVs could be used to take cities once bases are captured in enemy territory.

Just another thought that could be expanded on.  <shrugz>.

The thing that bugs me about this idea, you never hear anybody ever say, "You know what would really be fun?  Logging in to find your side's production facilities decimated by the enemy through no fault of your own and having to deal with the repercussions of it."

Wiley.
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Offline Devil 505

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Re: Idea for a MA terrain
« Reply #20 on: July 21, 2021, 10:12:56 PM »
The thing that bugs me about this idea, you never hear anybody ever say, "You know what would really be fun?  Logging in to find your side's production facilities decimated by the enemy through no fault of your own and having to deal with the repercussions of it."

Wiley.

Nailed it!
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Offline Hajo

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Re: Idea for a MA terrain
« Reply #21 on: July 22, 2021, 10:45:46 AM »
The thing that bugs me about this idea, you never hear anybody ever say, "You know what would really be fun?  Logging in to find your side's production facilities decimated by the enemy through no fault of your own and having to deal with the repercussions of it."

Wiley.

They could be resupplied brought up in strength in a reasonable time.  Not anytime soon such as 15 minutes.  Naturally after being destroyed or hit the game using time would begin to rebuild.

Our problem is we have an MA mentality. Wiley I know you gents...I'm pretty sure we think the MA is only a place to practice what we will be doing in events.  To me the MA is where I go for a short period to actually communicate with friends I've had for a long period of time in AH and AW.  The MA to me is only a 15 min sortie.  I flew in FSO for quite a period of time with Fencers 334th and yes also with JG/11.  Both I enjoyed immensely not only the people but the history of what we were trying to create.  I am wishing to add a Map such as Oboes to involve some history in the skies in the MA.  It's only one map and IMHO it will reduce the basetaking debacle.  Air Fields on all sides could be designed to be placed into a very difficult area to be captured. Unless some GV bases could be taken...........also placed in a difficult area to take we, won't have a hoard of GVs swarming a field.  doing this we could have more realistic mech war activities.  No spawns next door to a base.  A GV Mission could be set up with a myriad mix of gvs and yes....they will attack together and permit columns of GVs to actually battle as they did realistically. GV bases can in some areas of the map be placed so that the GV people could battle it out!  Sometimes we don't see the whole picture because of what we see in the MA on a daily basis.  Can you see a Tank battle at Kursk, the deserts of North Africa?  This would be fantastic imho.  There are many possibilities on this terrain that would be exclusive to all players.  This is only one map and may well draw new players into the game because of the history and realism of what air to air and tank battles really were.  As of now we have nothing like it.  Quite frankly the MA is boring to me.  Rinse and repeat.  Also the endless possibilities of what Naval Fleets would be able to accomplish.  Can you imagine a CV group stationed in the Great Lakes,  Baltic and Black Sea?  Think big!  The map would be a HUGE undertaking!  Fjords?  Are you kidding me?  A place where German Navy Vessels were hidden?  Midway?  All possible on one map.  Think Big!  It could be an endeavor that would attract more players not only to the map but to the game. It will take long time to develop (Map) but deserts, other continents such as Australia........it can be done.  Don't base or limit your thinking on the current set up in AH.  Think of a huge FSO or even scenario.  As a community we can manage and change what we can do with this map. 

Just a thought

Hajo
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 10:55:55 AM by Hajo »
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Offline Wiley

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Re: Idea for a MA terrain
« Reply #22 on: July 22, 2021, 11:17:09 AM »
Unfortunately, you'd either need massive numbers to support that kind of gameplay, or people who are extraordinarily committed to the idea.  Couple that with the way most gamers don't want that level of commitment/being told what to do, I just don't think it would be possible.

I'd love to see ginormous battles too though.  The old bigger FSOs were a lot more fun IMO than the current 1 or 2 targets being defended setups.  I still like what's there and there's not much to be done for it, but it's better when it's bigger.

Wiley.
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Offline oboe

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Re: Idea for a MA terrain
« Reply #23 on: July 22, 2021, 12:30:01 PM »
Would you guys say the main problem with Strats is that they are easier to attack than they are to defend?   That is, it's much more likely to find a buff-oriented player with the time and ambition to launch a group of heavy bombers, climb to 30K, and attack opposing strats than it would be to find a few players who are willing to man interceptors and climb up to 30K to try to knock the buffs down?  Especially when there is no penalty for bomb-and-bail tactics, its just not worth the effort of most players to defend strats?

And further, this is why on some maps, all the strats are gathered together and placed in the furthest corner away from the opposing sides?

I don't have an answer for that, but I think it might help to create some kind of penalty for bomb-and-bail, and to introduce a heavy downdraft above say, 25K, to keep buffs at a reasonable altitude?    I think another problem is VBases near strats.  Its difficult for a single pilot to shut down a VBase, but not difficult for a single player to attack nearby strats and siginificantly damage them, impacting the whole opposing country.

Hajo's mention of Peenemunde gave me another idea.   Maybe a new kind of base could be created, a 'V1 launch site', complete with the ramp style launchers, support vehicles & buildings, etc.   Normally these bases are present on the map, but inactive.  But as a country's strats are depleted, it would start to spend more and more resources to develop and deploy these weapons.   So maybe at if a strat is destroyed down to 50%, for example, the county's V1 bases become active and start firing V1 missiles (AI controlled of course, say 1 missile every 15 minutes) at the nearest enemy strat target.   The missiles could have visible icons and travel at 350 mph, and show up on a country's radar display, so it would not be impossible to find them and shoot them down.   

Or, a side's pilots could mount airstrikes to take the launchers out.  And as a county's strats are destroyed even further, the launch rate of V1s could be increased, maybe a V1 fired every 5-10 minutes?


« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 12:33:01 PM by oboe »


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Offline Hajo

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Re: Idea for a MA terrain
« Reply #24 on: July 22, 2021, 01:03:23 PM »
Oboe you nailed it.  The possibilities are endless.  This map I think would not have to be inserted into the rotation forever.  It could be inserted initially into the rotation to see what people think.

It could also be inserted into  it's own Arena.

As to the bombing of strats it appears the only time it does effect the arena is in the morning US time.  Bombers usually range free will at that time usually because of the low number of people.

Most of that time no one usually decides to defend the strats. So they can be bombed to death.  I think in the world map in the evenings US time there would be more time spent defending manufacturing

Turning a morning milk run to a long distance attack based on realism and defense of same being more important.  Make it more profitable in perks to hit a manufacturing target and be successful

then bombing a fields city which is much easier to do.  Again, just a thought.  What's wrong with bombers and escorts in a mission?  What wrong with defensive missions being launched from different

bases and in more than two types of fighter?  We've gotten lazy.  The MA is a first person shooter.
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 01:11:04 PM by Hajo »
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Offline hazmatt

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Re: Idea for a MA terrain
« Reply #25 on: July 22, 2021, 01:25:01 PM »
I think the answer to defending against strat runners and having more fun is to enable 163s at the bases around the strats.

If I see a 163 is available within a sector of the sighted bombers I'm after them, however, I'm not gonna take the time to take an a8 or a jug up and climb while chasing them across the map.

Offline JimmyD3

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Re: Idea for a MA terrain
« Reply #26 on: July 22, 2021, 04:09:29 PM »

Hajo's mention of Peenemunde gave me another idea.   Maybe a new kind of base could be created, a 'V1 launch site', complete with the ramp style launchers, support vehicles & buildings, etc.   Normally these bases are present on the map, but inactive.  But as a country's strats are depleted, it would start to spend more and more resources to develop and deploy these weapons.   So maybe at if a strat is destroyed down to 50%, for example, the county's V1 bases become active and start firing V1 missiles (AI controlled of course, say 1 missile every 15 minutes) at the nearest enemy strat target.   The missiles could have visible icons and travel at 350 mph, and show up on a country's radar display, so it would not be impossible to find them and shoot them down.   

Or, a side's pilots could mount airstrikes to take the launchers out.  And as a county's strats are destroyed even further, the launch rate of V1s could be increased, maybe a V1 fired every 5-10 minutes?

Most of what I've read in this thread has been "pie in the sky" perceptions into map creation, the idea of reducing "base takes", to me would be a death blow to the game. That is what generates 99% of the combat in the game today.

What excites me though, is this suggestion from Oboe, using V1's in relation to Strat status. V1's would be slow enough to allow interception, long range enough for multi-sector targets, and a counter to the existing "Strat attack cake walk". If this was generated, it would eventually lead to preemptive strikes on the V1 bases, as attacks are made on the strats. Very interesting possibilities.
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Offline RotBaron

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Re: Idea for a MA terrain
« Reply #27 on: July 22, 2021, 04:35:44 PM »
I think the answer to defending against strat runners and having more fun is to enable 163s at the bases around the strats.

If I see a 163 is available within a sector of the sighted bombers I'm after them, however, I'm not gonna take the time to take an a8 or a jug up and climb while chasing them across the map.

 :aok
Many of the maps donít have Me163ís enabled at the bases closest to the strats. 

I noticed this on either CraterMA or Oceania recently.
They're casting their bait over there, see?

Offline oboe

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Re: Idea for a MA terrain
« Reply #28 on: July 22, 2021, 05:10:47 PM »
Most of what I've read in this thread has been "pie in the sky" perceptions into map creation, the idea of reducing "base takes", to me would be a death blow to the game. That is what generates 99% of the combat in the game today.

What excites me though, is this suggestion from Oboe, using V1's in relation to Strat status. V1's would be slow enough to allow interception, long range enough for multi-sector targets, and a counter to the existing "Strat attack cake walk". If this was generated, it would eventually lead to preemptive strikes on the V1 bases, as attacks are made on the strats. Very interesting possibilities.

As I think more about it, it might really freshen up game play.  The V1 Base might look just like a regular GV base, but instead of hangars, you'd have 4 V1 ramp launchers, each one pointed to a different cardinal direction: N, S, E, & W.  The availability of V1s here could be tied to the fuel and ammo bunkers.   Maybe you'd need one Vehicle Hangar to repel ground attacks or allow defenders to spawn Wirbelwinds or OstWinds. 

After launch, the V1 itself might have a smoke trail,  looking like a plane does when it has a radiator leak - greyish or white smoke.   That'd make it a little easier to track.  Might be fun to up a Tempest or late mark Spit and try to chase one down.

And Aces High would have another game feature no other flight sim has.  IL-2 does have V1 sites, but they are just targets; I don't think they actually launch anything.

The 3D model and artwork shouldn't be too bad - no cockpit, wouldn't even need moveable control surfaces.  And a very simplified flight model...
« Last Edit: July 22, 2021, 05:15:56 PM by oboe »


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Offline JimmyD3

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Re: Idea for a MA terrain
« Reply #29 on: July 22, 2021, 06:31:56 PM »
:aok
Many of the maps donít have Me163ís enabled at the bases closest to the strats. 

I noticed this on either CraterMA or Oceania recently.

163's are only enabled at the base closest to the HQ.
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