Author Topic: Has anybody ever tried a ETO MA?  (Read 9922 times)

Offline oboe

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Has anybody ever tried a ETO MA?
« on: December 03, 2021, 06:30:34 PM »
Thinking of something like this.  I would like to lift off with heavy bombers from an airfield outside of London and bomb Berlin.  Or hit Rome from a captured base in North Africa. 



I have to believe people have tried it over the years but found play balance too difficult to achieve?




Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Has anybody ever tried a ETO MA?
« Reply #1 on: December 03, 2021, 08:27:42 PM »
I think something like that would be really cool. Like you said the balance might be hard to achieve.

Other issues would be the mixed plane availability to all countries would kinda take away from the immersion of the more realistic map lay out.

For me it wouldnt bother me. If the balance was off, or people flew the wrong planes, or there is not Japanese area it would still be a fun map to play on. Im all for anything new. I wish Hitech would release the other new maps he has from Kong and Kenii

Offline oboe

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Re: Has anybody ever tried a ETO MA?
« Reply #2 on: December 11, 2021, 03:24:16 PM »
Do I understand correctly that there have been new maps submitted, but are sitting at HTC with nothing happening toward getting them in game?  As if HTC doesn't have the time or resources to review maps and get them into the game?

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Has anybody ever tried a ETO MA?
« Reply #3 on: December 11, 2021, 03:33:58 PM »
Do I understand correctly that there have been new maps submitted, but are sitting at HTC with nothing happening toward getting them in game?  As if HTC doesn't have the time or resources to review maps and get them into the game?

Correct, I think KONG has 2 This being one and Kenai redid the ndisles map here

Offline JimmyD3

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Re: Has anybody ever tried a ETO MA?
« Reply #4 on: December 11, 2021, 11:03:05 PM »
Oboe that looks really do able at first glance. I'll do a check to see if it is possible.

 Yes several maps have been submitted by Kong and by me, they have, however not been put in the  rotation. Not sure why, I got a message from Hitech back in August saying he was going to try and get my maps up. All I can think of he is too busy, or there are issues with the maps. So far no feed back.
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Offline JimmyD3

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Re: Has anybody ever tried a ETO MA?
« Reply #5 on: December 13, 2021, 07:06:55 PM »
Oboe, would this work??
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Offline oboe

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Re: Has anybody ever tried a ETO MA?
« Reply #6 on: December 13, 2021, 09:54:47 PM »
That looks fantastic.   At this point I overlay a 3-section colored pie to break roughly the areas of the 3 countries and get a feel for the land vs sea area ratio for each country:

 

I think the extra land area in North Africa is great for getting the strats out of the way for the southern country, and east Russia/Siberia is a good location for the East country's strats.  But the NW country will need to use Ireland and Scotland and that's not much land area.   They may be too close to each other?

One question, what is the minimum clearance needed for a CV group to pass between land areas?  I'm wondering if it would be better to go to 11x11 map grip, extended to the Nort and West so there is more ocean maneuever room for NW countries fleets to get around Spain and into the Med.

Also, can you widen the narrow passages like the English Channel, Strait of Gibraltar, the Kattegat between Denmark and Sweden, and the Dardenelles Strait between the Black Sea and the Aegean Sea?  So that CV or BB Groups can navigate through these passages?   The East country will have ports in the Baltic and Black Seas, and will need to be able to get fleets out into the North Sea, Med, and even the Atlantic theoretically...

Also, can you mix tilesets?  It would be great to use desert tiles in North Africa, mountain tiles in the Alps and Pyrenees, and mixed woodlands for the rest of the land areas...

This is so cool seeing it, thanks for bringing it to life Kenai!
« Last Edit: December 13, 2021, 10:14:10 PM by oboe »

Offline JimmyD3

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Re: Has anybody ever tried a ETO MA?
« Reply #7 on: December 14, 2021, 12:24:06 AM »
There are some things we can do to enable better CV mobility, also this is a small map, 256 X 256. If we went to a larger map that would open up a few things. The larger map would entail longer flight times, and more bases.

Strat locations is not a major issue in my opinion. Each countries area will have different advantages and disadvantages, just like in real life, there is never a perfect balance. Limit this to no more than 30 bases per country.

We would most likely have to modify the English Channel, the Straits of Gibraltar, and some islands in the baltic to allow cv usage. The Aegean Sea will also need some work.

As I understand it, we can not mix tile sets, how ever the tile sets have a pretty good variety of terrain types to choose from.

I'll pursue this some more and see what we can come up with. I'll keep you posted.  :salute
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Offline turt21

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Re: Has anybody ever tried a ETO MA?
« Reply #8 on: December 14, 2021, 07:41:28 AM »
My first reaction is whether someone would be willing to sit in on 1 flt of bombers for many hours to Berlin.  Realistic but not practical in the game. A 10 min GV ride from a spawn is tortous by times.

Offline oboe

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Re: Has anybody ever tried a ETO MA?
« Reply #9 on: December 14, 2021, 08:26:13 AM »
Absolutely fair points, Turt21.   I think the idea of this map should be to provide an strong ETO-like experience but at a compressed scale to support active MA-style game play.

On Kenai's map, Berlin would be located at approximately 10.13.2.   Bombers lifting off from an airfield in East Anglia (7.13.3) would need to travel about 2.5 sectors to target.   Each sector on this map is 25.6 miles, so its about 64 miles straight line to Berlin.   At a cruising speed of 200 mph, this would take approximately 20 minutes real time.   

A B-17 with 50% fuel and full bomb load climbs at about 1000 ft per minute, so climbing straight to target would get you there at an altitude of 19,000 ft, which is somewhat realistic.  B-17s climb speed however is closer to 150 mph, so it would take longer.  And you also have to level out at least half-sector before target so you can get the bombsite calibrated.   

I think the dedicated heavy bomber players are used to this type of time commitment for a single mission in the MA.  T I see them frequently in excess of 25000' so they are willing invest game time to climb to a very safe altitude.   I don't have that patience myself, I typically only make it to 12-16000 before I'm over target.   

Another thing I think needs to be kept in mind is the distance of the land borders between countries, to allow lots of opposing GV bases along the borders.  In Kenai's map, the colored pie overlay's origin in central Italy means there is not much of a land border between the NW and Southern countries.   If you compare to my proposed map above, you can see how I've tried to maximize land borders between all 3 countries.

Kenai, I'm especially encourage to hear your thoughts on Strat Target locations - I don't care for them grouped together way at the edge of the map, however this seems to be a characteristic of many MA maps.   In my first map way above, you can see I've tried to spread them out through each country's domain, and put the large city at the site of a real world large city - London, Rome, and Berlin.  In my proposed map, these 3 cities form a triangle and are roughly equidistant from each other.

I'd be interested to see the land area included at using 11x11 or 12x12 grid, if possible?   I don't know the terrain tool, but am I correct in saying the maps either had to be 256x256 or 512x512?  And Hitech has changed that somehow to support map dimensions that are OK as long as they are divisible by 2?  Something like that?


Offline Easyscor

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Re: Has anybody ever tried a ETO MA?
« Reply #10 on: December 14, 2021, 01:17:19 PM »
... but am I correct in saying the maps either had to be 256x256 or 512x512?
Correct as far as past MA terrains go. The player numbers don't really support the 512 size terrains any more so your have your size correct.

Consider the extreme example of mindnao where the western country was usually frozen out of the win the war part of the game because of the distances. While much better, you might want to throw some non RL islands into the Mediterranean to mitigate any issues with distances and balance for Africa.
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Offline JimmyD3

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Re: Has anybody ever tried a ETO MA?
« Reply #11 on: December 14, 2021, 05:54:59 PM »
Here is a revised map;

I was having difficulties getting any data above Latitude 60 deg., that is now a none issue.
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Offline oboe

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Re: Has anybody ever tried a ETO MA?
« Reply #12 on: December 14, 2021, 06:49:46 PM »
I see a lot of potential there.    The NW country could comprise England, Ireland, Norway, 1/2 of Spain, the west 1/2 of Germany.  The Southern country could be all of N Africa, the other 1/2 of Spain, Italy, Greece, the Balkan States, and Turkey.  The East country gets the rest.



The East country has the most land mass, but its naval fleets would be split between northern ports in the Baltic Sea and southern ports on the Black Sea.   I don't know how that would play out in the MA?   With so much ocean area around England and Ireland, would the NW Country's strat targets be subject to shelling by naval fleets, unlike the East country?

I don't mind the assymetry of real world geography, as long as it can be counterbalanced somehow.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2021, 06:57:58 PM by oboe »

Offline artik

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Re: Has anybody ever tried a ETO MA?
« Reply #13 on: December 15, 2021, 01:04:59 AM »
Here is a revised map;

I was having difficulties getting any data above Latitude 60 deg., that is now a none issue.

For data above Lat 60 you need to use GTOPO30. Since you are working in such a big "downscale" the GTOPO30 will be good enough. Make sure that you use up-to-date download sources

Also I strongly recommend reduce the number of rivers for a map of such a scale:

Default river_level=3 is too high, reduce it to 1 or even to 0 since the map filled with too many rivers.
« Last Edit: December 15, 2021, 01:09:16 AM by artik »
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Offline JimmyD3

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Re: Has anybody ever tried a ETO MA?
« Reply #14 on: December 15, 2021, 09:44:32 AM »
For data above Lat 60 you need to use GTOPO30. Since you are working in such a big "downscale" the GTOPO30 will be good enough. Make sure that you use up-to-date download sources

Also I strongly recommend reduce the number of rivers for a map of such a scale:

Default river_level=3 is too high, reduce it to 1 or even to 0 since the map filled with too many rivers.

Thanks artik, will do. You were correct earlier on the availability of gtopp30, as you know. I will change the river levels and see what we get. Your program is still AWESOME!!!!!!  :x
Kenai77
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USAF 1971-76