Author Topic: Pyro- why no 109K4?  (Read 433 times)

Offline Urchin

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Pyro- why no 109K4?
« on: July 23, 2001, 03:59:00 PM »
Pyro, I was told in game that you did not want to add the 109K4, any particular reason why?  I'd like to have it if it rolls better than the G10 does, even if it does turn a little bit worse.  

<Note, that info is from Grunherz, I've no idea if it is actually faster at rolling and a bit worse at turning, he said the difference is less than the difference between the G6 and the G10 turn-wise.>

Offline AKSWulfe

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Pyro- why no 109K4?
« Reply #1 on: July 23, 2001, 04:01:00 PM »
The G10 in game is the K4 without the revised canopy according to Pyro.

-SW

Offline GRUNHERZ

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Pyro- why no 109K4?
« Reply #2 on: July 23, 2001, 04:24:00 PM »
Revised canopy SW? What u mean?

Anyway what I know about possibly AH relevant K4 differences is:

Faster due to gear doors and tail wheel.

A bit heavier due to above.

Was a bit less stable at 30,000feet than G10 for some reason, according to the pilots.

Had internal components relocated to improve balance.

Most important it had new ailerons with flettner tabs. These helped increse high speed rollrate and eased pilot effort in rolling.

Basically flettner tabs are small tabs that automatically move in the opposite direction of the control surface.

For example Lets say:

The aileron delects up.

The flettner tab automatically deflects down.

This acts very much as a small wing flap, increasing the lift and helping keep the ailron deflected up at high speeds.
This is what would cause the incresed hig speed roll rate.


Apparently these flettner tabs were very effective as some early A6M Zeros had them fitted. These planes would then rip their wings off from the increased roll rate.  :)


As for where I heard pyro said he didnt want to do a K4, it was in an old old old thread on the BBS.

Maybe now he has changed his mind, I donno.

 :)

Offline AKSWulfe

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Pyro- why no 109K4?
« Reply #3 on: July 23, 2001, 04:31:00 PM »
Nevermind, I just looked at the AH G-10 and it does have the sleeker canopy. I thought it had the old boxy one like the E, F and early G series.
-SW

Offline Hristo

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Pyro- why no 109K4?
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2001, 05:04:00 PM »
From W. Green "Warplanes of the third Reich":

109K-4 speed 378 mph at sea level

Offline Nashwan

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Pyro- why no 109K4?
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2001, 05:09:00 PM »
Perk it  :)

Offline Wotan

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Pyro- why no 109K4?
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2001, 05:32:00 PM »
thats about what Nash is getting out of his n1k2.......

Shhh you ever see him fly thing ............ :)

Offline Pongo

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Pyro- why no 109K4?
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2001, 05:37:00 PM »
William Green also says it has 15mm cowl guns and a mk103 in the spinner doenst he?

I think Pyro is going on the position(commonly held) that the G10 is functionaly identical to the K4. It certainly had the same armements and engine. And was issued to units interchangably
Grun post refrences for the differences you site please.
William Green does not count in my books.

Offline Urchin

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Pyro- why no 109K4?
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2001, 05:50:00 PM »
I'd be more concerned about the increased roll-rate to be honest ;-)  I like to FIGHT in the 109, and the increased rollrate would help me do that.  I think the AH g10 does about 375 or so sea-level, I could be wrong there.  It is really intellectual curiousity, I fly the 109 a lot and if it performs better than what we have now, I want it  :D

Offline Staga

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Pyro- why no 109K4?
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2001, 08:06:00 PM »
K-Models were using different armament configurations.

Some got similar like in G-10:
Engine mounted MK-108 30mm and two MG131 13mm under engine cowlings.

Some lost cowling armament but got different wing with inbuilt cannons/MGs. This could be reason for Mr.Greens thoughts about 15mm MGs installed in 109.
Also some versions lost engine-mounted cannon but got two 13mm MGs installed under engine cowlings and MK-108 cannons inside of wings (Not in pods).

And it also looks like modified MK-103 cannon was meant to be installed in some K-models. AFAIR only few prototupes were manufactured.

Offline Staga

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Pyro- why no 109K4?
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2001, 08:15:00 PM »
Couple drawings:

K-6:
3*MK-108 30mm: Two in wings and one in engine and 2*MG131 over engine.
 

K-8:
Modified engine-mounted MK-103 30mm cannon and 2*MK-108 cannons inside of wings.
 

Problem with manufacturing numbers is that some of K-models were overhauled older G-models and were re-engined/re-armed in different factories.

Offline Urchin

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Pyro- why no 109K4?
« Reply #11 on: July 23, 2001, 08:17:00 PM »
Dead GOD- 3x30mm cannon?  Bet that sucker packed a punch...

Offline Staga

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Pyro- why no 109K4?
« Reply #12 on: July 23, 2001, 08:35:00 PM »
Looks like K-6 was in "limited" production but K-8s were only couple protos.

Offline Hooligan

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Pyro- why no 109K4?
« Reply #13 on: July 23, 2001, 08:50:00 PM »
15mm cowl guns were not mounted.  This is a mistake somebody once made that has been endlessly propagated.

The Mg151 15mm is identical in size to the 20mm version and about 3 times the weight of the Mg131 13mm gun (which they had some trouble accommodating in the cowl).  There was simply not enough room in the cowl to mount Mg151s and if there were they would have mounted the 20mm version.

Hooligan

Offline Staga

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Pyro- why no 109K4?
« Reply #14 on: July 23, 2001, 09:02:00 PM »
K-6 with 3*MK108 and 2*MG131 could be german 8 points perk-plane  ;)