Author Topic: Pierre Clostermann opinion of the Spitfire vs Me-109 and FW-190A  (Read 3481 times)

Offline icepac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6772
Re: Pierre Clostermann opinion of the Spitfire vs Me-109 and FW-190A
« Reply #30 on: June 29, 2022, 02:27:51 PM »

Curious how a skyraider shot down a Mig 17 who made 11 or more gunnery passes at him.

Offline FLS

  • AH Training Corps
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11597
      • Trainer's Website
Re: Pierre Clostermann opinion of the Spitfire vs Me-109 and FW-190A
« Reply #31 on: June 29, 2022, 06:24:04 PM »
SkyRaider turns better, fight on the deck, Mig overshot and got clipped. I forget the details but I think there were two Mig kills.

Offline Tig

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 351
Re: Pierre Clostermann opinion of the Spitfire vs Me-109 and FW-190A
« Reply #32 on: June 29, 2022, 06:29:42 PM »
SkyRaider turns better, fight on the deck, Mig overshot and got clipped. I forget the details but I think there were two Mig kills.

I heard one of a MiG that went the wrong way around a mountain/large hill and HO'd the Skyraider.
Turn n' Burn!

Offline icepac

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 6772
Re: Pierre Clostermann opinion of the Spitfire vs Me-109 and FW-190A
« Reply #33 on: June 29, 2022, 08:19:46 PM »
Two migs dove in with missiles and missed and made 10 guns passes to try to get guns on the sky raiders before one went to a high perch likely out of ammo.   The other made a pass and overshot and extended for a HO which ended badly.   
When he met the surviving mig pilot a few years ago he was told they made 12 passes
« Last Edit: June 29, 2022, 08:50:16 PM by icepac »

Offline FLS

  • AH Training Corps
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 11597
      • Trainer's Website
Re: Pierre Clostermann opinion of the Spitfire vs Me-109 and FW-190A
« Reply #34 on: June 29, 2022, 09:00:03 PM »
The first of these victorious engagements took place on Jun. 20, 1965, when a flight of Skyraiders from the Strike Squadron 25 (VA-25) Fist of the Fleet, took off from the USS Midway (CVA-41) supporting the rescue of a downed USAF pilot in the northwest corner of North Vietnam were attacked by a flight of MiG-17s.

The two enemy jets launched missiles and fired with their cannons against the two A-1Hs, but both Skyraiders’ pilots, Lt. Charles W. Hartman III, flying A-1H BuNo 137523, radio callsign “Canasta 573,” and Lt. Clinton B. Johnson, flying A-1H BuNo 139768, callsign “Canasta 577,” evaded them before and maneuvered to shoot down one of the MiGs with their 20 mm cannons.

Lt. Johnson described this engagement in Donald J. McCarthy, Jr. book “MiG Killers A Chronology of U.S. Air Victories in Vietnam 1965-1973” as follows: “I fired a short burst at the MiG and missed, but got the MiG pilot’s attention. He turned into us, making a head-on pass. Charlie and I fired simultaneously as he passed so close that Charlie thought I had hit his vertical stabilizer with the tip of my tail hook. Both of us fired all four guns. Charlie’s rounds appeared to go down the intake and into the wing root, and mine along the top of the fuselage and through the canopy. He never returned our fire, rolled, inverted, and hit a small hill, exploding and burning in a farm field.”

The subsequent MiG kill of this engagement was shared by both Hartmann III and Johnson.


The second victory of the propeller-driven Skyraider against a  North Vietnamese MiG-17 jet fighter, took place on Oct. 9, 1966 and involved four A-1Hs launched  from the deck of the USS Intrepid (CV-11) in the Gulf of Tonkin flying as “Papoose flight.”

The flight was from the Strike Squadron 176 (VA-176) Thunderbolts and it was led by Lt. Cdr. Leo Cook, with Lt. Wiley as wingman, while the second section was led by Lt. Peter Russell with Lt. William T. Patton as wingman.

It was during the RESCAP (the REScue Combat Air Patrol, a mission flown to protect the downed pilots from ground threats) flight, that the “Spads” (as the Skyraiders were dubbed by their pilots) were attacked by four MiG-17s. This engagement ended with one Fresco confirmed as being shot down, a second as probably shot down and a third heavily damaged.

According to McCarthy, the MiG-17 kill was awarded to “Papoose 409,” the A-1H BuNo 137543, flown by Lt. Patton who, after having gained a position of advantage on one of the MiGs, opened fire with his four guns, hitting the tail section of the enemy jet. Patton followed the MiG which descended through the cloud deck and when Papoose 409 emerged from the clouds he spotted the enemy pilot’s parachute.

https://theaviationist.com/2015/01/14/the-most-unusual-mig-killer-the-skyraider-air-to-air-victories-on-north-vietnamese-mig-17s/

Offline Oldman731

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9333
Re: Pierre Clostermann opinion of the Spitfire vs Me-109 and FW-190A
« Reply #35 on: June 29, 2022, 09:35:40 PM »
If memory serves, we had an AH player whose father was one of those SpAD pilots.  Can't remember his name.

- oldman