Author Topic: Ki-84-1a v Spitfire Mk VIII  (Read 1912 times)

Offline Badboy

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Ki-84-1a v Spitfire Mk VIII
« on: October 06, 2022, 07:46:10 PM »

In this dissimilar aircraft comparison the advantage swings at different times and is small and it is not easy to see the impact without detailed analysis. Overall the advantage goes to the Ki84. The Ki84 has the edge in a couple of important ways which depend on factors that I haven't seen mentioned in similar discussions. Allow me to explain.

In the Ki84 v Spit8 engagement the early stages of the fight yields a small advantage to the Spit8. That is because the Spitfire has a slighter higher instantaneous turn rate at corner. We are talking 33.4dps for the Spit8 and 32.1 for the Ki84. That's only a 1.3dps advantage for the Spit8, but the problem is that both aircraft bleed speed quickly in this high G phase of the fight so the advantage only lasts long enough to result in a very small angular advantage to the Spit, which would be almost unnoticeable to most pilots.

After that, as both aircraft begin to stall fight at their respective sustained turn rates the edge remains with the Spit8 because the best sustained turn rate for the Spit8 is 24.3dps and for the Ki84 23.3dps so the advantage drops to 1dps. However, to achieve that the Ki84 must use flaps and in that situation the Ki84 has a slightly smaller radius which means that it would take at least 3 minutes for the spit to move onto the Ki84s tail but because of the Ki84s smaller radius the Spit can't pull lead for the shot. There is a BFM technique that can create that lead, but it needs to be repeated and takes time and can easily extend the duration of the fight to the point where the Spit loses it's WEP. At that point the advantage swings back to the Ki84.

The Ki84 has shorter WEP time than the spit8, but gets it back much more quickly. Once the Spit8 loses its WEP it is effectively gone for the rest of the fight. Without WEP the Spit's sustained turn rate drops to 22.3dps while the Ki84 still has access to its 23.3dps for a 1dps advantage. During the brief periods when the Ki84 loses WEP it drops back to an almost identical rate to the Spit8, and then oscillates between a 1dps advantage and neutral for the rest of the fight. In effect, if the Ki84 is still in the fight when the Spit8 runs out of WEP, the Spit8 will eventually be out turned. The 1dps is actually worth more to the Ki84 because as mentioned earlier, it has a slightly smaller turn radius and will not have any difficulty getting lead for a shot. But it gets worse! Because this all takes time and the Spit's fuel burns off far more quickly than the Ki84, the Ki84 can hang in the fight longer and has time to utilize its advantage.

So, here are the factors I mentioned earlier. The first factor is that from the perspective of the Spitfire pilot, staying in the fight after losing WEP is bad because not only is he going to be out turned by an aircraft with a smaller radius and no difficulty getting lead for a shot, he may also run out of fuel before the Ki84 has time to bring his guns to bear. The second factor is that given that the Spit8 is entirely defensive and needs to break off the engagement, at this point his escape window has slammed shut, and hard. The Spitfire simply can't can't break off, the Ki84 accelerates better and is faster so any attempt to extend or reset could only depend on a degree of good luck for its success. Such as the proximity of friendlies, ACK or a mistake by the Ki84 pilot.

In summary, the Spit8 has a small advantage while it's WEP holds out, but it is far from decisive. Any real advantage at this point will come from mistakes by the Ki84 pilot if he doesn't know how to use flaps and achieve a maximum sustained turn. Otherwise, once the Spit loses WEP, the advantage swings to the Ki84 and is now a more decisive advantage because the turn rate is combined with the smaller radius and the Ki84 has time on his side. The Spit can't stay in, and can't get out.

In my experience the main reason the Spit wins engagements with the Ki84 is because Ki84 pilots often lack this knowledge and don't fly with the same confidence and aggression as the Spits who just assume (quite wrongly) that they are flying the superior aircraft. In many ways aggressive Spitfire pilots are bluffing, they just don't have the advantage they think they do and if enough Ki84 pilots read this and fly more confidently, the tables will turn.

Knowing these things, when I fight a Ki84 I'm cautious with my WEP and if I see I'm fighting a Ki84 who knows what he's doing I know I'm in for a long tough fight. I will press for an advantage, but won't persist until it is too late. I look forward to Ki84 v Spit8 fights because they can be great fights and I've been in many that have gone exactly as I have described here because there are some very good Ki84 drivers in the game.

Hope that helps

Badboy


Reference document:


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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Ki-84-1a v Spitfire Mk VIII
« Reply #1 on: October 06, 2022, 08:19:57 PM »
Thanks for this explanation, Badz.  We did this in the AvA some years ago, back when the BKs were still here.  We ran Spit 8s v Franks for a full week, BKs v the AvA regulars.  Halfway through the week, we switched sides.  In both instances the Frank was clearly superior.  Appreciate the analysis of why.

Oops.  Just saw that you found my old post about this in the general discussion forum.

- oldman
« Last Edit: October 06, 2022, 08:23:27 PM by Oldman731 »

Offline Rich46yo

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Re: Ki-84-1a v Spitfire Mk VIII
« Reply #2 on: October 10, 2022, 03:41:20 PM »
Excellent post.
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Offline DaddyAce

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Re: Ki-84-1a v Spitfire Mk VIII
« Reply #3 on: November 04, 2022, 09:23:29 AM »
Great explanation Badboy!   :salute

Offline mikeWe9a

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Re: Ki-84-1a v Spitfire Mk VIII
« Reply #4 on: November 04, 2022, 04:59:09 PM »
Badboy -

At what altitude is that chart derived? 

Increasing altitude will increase the true airspeed for any given indicated airspeed, causing turn radius to increase and turn rate to decrease at corner velocity (or any velocity for that matter).  Altitude also affects engine power and thrust, affecting sustained performance numbers more significantly than the corner velocity data.  Instantaneous performance effects of altitude will generally relate to all aircraft equally, though sustained performance will be affected differently by different aircraft, as the effects of altitude on power are different for every engine/supercharger installation.

Mike

Offline Badboy

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Re: Ki-84-1a v Spitfire Mk VIII
« Reply #5 on: November 07, 2022, 12:15:51 PM »
Badboy -

At what altitude is that chart derived?

Increasing altitude will increase the true airspeed for any given indicated airspeed, causing turn radius to increase and turn rate to decrease at corner velocity (or any velocity for that matter).  Altitude also affects engine power and thrust, affecting sustained performance numbers more significantly than the corner velocity data.  Instantaneous performance effects of altitude will generally relate to all aircraft equally, though sustained performance will be affected differently by different aircraft, as the effects of altitude on power are different for every engine/supercharger installation.

Mike

Hi Mike

Some very good points.

Sorry, that chart gives the sea level performance only.

For performance comparison between aircraft at a range of altitudes, weights and weapon configurations, I think it is more appropriate to use Energy Maneuverability (EM) diagrams.

I've done that over the years for many of the AH aircraft, and was often motivated to carry out the analysis for scenarios or to address specific performance questions.

When I produce EM diagrams they do of course take everything into account, including the effect of atmospheric changes and engine/supercharger differences for the weight or configuration being considered. I've attached a couple of examples below.   



You will notice that the diagrams confirm your previous points. For example, the comparison of the P47D11 v Fw190A5 shows that at SL the 190 has a significant sustained turn rate advantage, but by 15k the two aircraft are almost equal in that respect and by 30k the tables are turned and the P47 dominates in sustained performance across the envelope. Your other points can be confirmed by comparing differences in the Ps curves in contrast to those for the lift and g limit curves at various altitudes.   

I started doing EM analysis in Air Warrior back in 1990 and started doing them for Aces High as soon as I migrated over in 2000. I've found them very helpful for training purposes as a trainer in both Sim's and find them invaluable for dissimilar air combat. I know many of the AH players don't like them, or are happy to do without them, but to be honest I simply can't imagine flying without the information they provide. Almost everything I do in a fighter in the game is informed by EM analysis.

Unfortunately, these days I find myself referring back to them more and more often as my memory fades with age :)

Kind regards

Badboy
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Offline trogdor

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Re: Ki-84-1a v Spitfire Mk VIII
« Reply #6 on: December 28, 2022, 12:11:11 AM »
Is there a way to make sure nrshida never reads this analysis? He's obnoxious enough in the Frank already!

Excellent write-up, badboy. Thanks for posting!  :aok
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Ki-84-1a v Spitfire Mk VIII
« Reply #7 on: December 28, 2022, 01:45:35 PM »
Is there a way to make sure nrshida never reads this analysis? He's obnoxious enough in the Frank already!

Hmmm I have been aware but refraining from posting here and in the associated thread because they omit the important variable of the virtual-pilot driving the virtual-aircraft and their philosophies and effect when blended together.

There's the pre-2012 shida and the post-2012 shida. Although the latter is far more knowledgeable in ACM the former is actually the more lethal incarnation. Have only knowingly fought you in the later incarnation so you've only seen shadows of the former self. Much to my chagrin I never was able to resolve the divergent forms of ACM. The counterintuitivity of more knowledge equating to diminished performance is an ongoing source of irritation.

So depending on which version of me asked I do and don't agree with some of the content of these threads.  :salute
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Offline Badboy

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Re: Ki-84-1a v Spitfire Mk VIII
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2022, 11:13:06 PM »
The counterintuitivity of more knowledge equating to diminished performance is an ongoing source of irritation.

Great point.

It may be counterintuitive, but it is exactly what one should expect.

Our performance is not just related to knowledge, although that is the most important thing in most circumstances.

Our performance in anything we want to be good at is a function of three things, in order of importance they are: Knowledge, practice and natural talent. You can control the last one to some extent in the real world during selection, but for training and improvement you only focus on the first two.

Practice without knowledge can lead to much wasted effort, so knowledge is foremost. Once you know a thing, you need to deliberately practice it, as distinct from simple mindless repetition. Deliberate practice is when you do a thing, analyse it afterwards, fix faults and improve, then rinse and repeat.

Here is the catch.

Suppose you enjoy fighting a certain way, but you know it is not optimal and you need to change. You know this because while you can beat 90% of pilots doing it, the other 10% punish you for it, so you know you need to do something different.

You figure it out by acquiring new knowledge. Problem is the thing you need to do needs practice so when you try it you find you are now getting punished by the original 10% along with another 20% who are still doing the wrong thing, but they are doing it way better than you are doing the right thing.

I frequently see examples of this in A2A combat. I see pilots do the wrong thing in terms of BFM/ACM/Energy management and they have been doing those things wrong for so long they do it so well it can be quite difficult to punish them for their mistakes. I won't name names, but I still always try to point those things out when I see them done by friendly adversaries.

Learning something by yourself is difficult because it isn't easy to tell if good results are due to doing the wrong thing well against someone doing the right thing badly, or if bad results are due to doing the right thing badly against someone doing the wrong thing well. Very often people will stop doing the right things because they aren't working when they just need more deliberate practice. That's why in most cases a coach or trainer is so important to help fine tune your knowledge and help analyse the faults and fix them. That's why a coach or trainer will get you to keep doing a thing even when it doesn't seem to be working because they know if you persevere it will pay off big time.

Bottom line is that new knowledge can often result in diminished performance until it has been sufficiently well practiced, particularly if you stop doing the bad stuff you were well practiced at and replace it with new good stuff you haven't practiced enough yet.

The scary thing is, how much practice we are talking about? It can be a lot. Learning something new in AH can take 5 minutes, doing it well enough to beat 90% of the other players at it could take 3 years or more. That's where the talent can help, natural talent has a big impact on the time required. If you aren't naturally gifted, it just means you need to work harder and longer to see the same results. And of course old habits die hard, and most of us just want quick results.

I was excited and surprised recently to learn something new in the DA from someone during friendly fights in a particular aircraft, not my best ride. I didn't do well. I was lucky because the new knowledge mostly required existing skills so a week or so later a return visit with the same pilot went the other way entirely. Shortly afterwards I shared that knowledge with another good pilot in this thread and no doubt that will come back to bite me in due course. For me that is just part of the fun. It's ongoing, and the hits you need to take are just part of the learning process.

Hopefully I've said something to help with any minor irritation... If not embrace it, all good things take time ;)

Badboy
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Offline nrshida

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Re: Ki-84-1a v Spitfire Mk VIII
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2022, 05:23:59 AM »
It may be counterintuitive, but it is exactly what one should expect.

Potentially interesting and esoteric conversation. I do recognise your points having arrived at them independently and gone even farther. I'd be interested in going deeper with the conversation but note we may have ideological differences which could be a conversation-stopper.

I inferred I'd encountered you in the first third of 2022 somewhere? I won't disclose the callsign publicly. If so I might have a relevant and interesting film to discuss and exchange ideas about.
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Offline Dadtallica

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Re: Ki-84-1a v Spitfire Mk VIII
« Reply #10 on: December 31, 2022, 09:46:20 AM »
Love your charts and analytics! Someone get this man a PowerBI license lol.
Back in 2022 after a loooooong break from 2010. Old name Ratpack, same for the BBS.

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Offline Tig

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Re: Ki-84-1a v Spitfire Mk VIII
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2022, 10:13:16 AM »
I frequently see examples of this in A2A combat. I see pilots do the wrong thing in terms of BFM/ACM/Energy management and they have been doing those things wrong for so long they do it so well it can be quite difficult to punish them for their mistakes. I won't name names, but I still always try to point those things out when I see them done by friendly adversaries.

 :rofl :rofl :rofl
Glad you don't like TheJudge either.  :rofl :rofl :rofl
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Offline Badboy

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Re: Ki-84-1a v Spitfire Mk VIII
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2022, 01:38:42 PM »
:rofl :rofl :rofl
Glad you don't like TheJudge either.  :rofl :rofl :rofl

I know that's just a joke, but it couldn't be farther from the truth.

I've flown both with him and against him on an almost daily basis and understand exactly what he's doing and there is absolutely nothing there to dislike. On the contrary, I tend to respect players who do whatever it is they do, if they do it with some skill and success.

He predominantly flys one aircraft, recently that is the Fw190D9 and is very familiar with its performance and weapons. When you fly the same aircraft a lot, it is amazing how good your gunnery and aircraft handling become. That's pretty much true for anyone.

He also understands something about air combat that has always been true, that is that the appropriate BFM is strongly influenced by weapon systems. The guns on the Fw190D9 combined with the aircraft's handling characteristics, make it a formidable high aspect weapon. If you understand that you can fly the appropriate high aspect BFM. Many don't do that and then get frustrated when what they do doesn't work.

To succeed you need an advantage in one of two things:

The first option is just to do the same thing as your opponent, but do it better. That is to compete directly using the same aircraft, same BFM and skill set. The catch is to do the same thing better than someone else usually means you need to practice it at least as much if not more than they do. In this specific case, for someone with little prior experience in the aircraft, that would require that they fly it long enough to achieve at least a thousand kills every tour in the D9 for several tours to begin to compete at the same level.

The second option would be if you had a deeper and broader knowledge of the entire plane set and used that to gain a performance advantage in dissimilar air combat using the appropriate BFM/ACM and win by taking advantage of the strengths and weaknesses of each aircraft. The catch is that might take even longer to achieve than the first option if you don't already have the knowledge base, and of course you still need to be as familiar with your aircraft as they are with theirs.

My personal preference for the two methods depends on the location of the fights. I like to use the first Method in the DA, and the second method in the MA. I can confirm both methods work well because I use both frequently and with equal success.

I have always found that when you compete against someone enough, without exception it has never ended in dislike, and has always ended in various degrees of respect.

Regards

Badboy

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Offline Badboy

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Re: Ki-84-1a v Spitfire Mk VIII
« Reply #13 on: December 31, 2022, 01:57:01 PM »
Potentially interesting and esoteric conversation. I do recognise your points having arrived at them independently and gone even farther. I'd be interested in going deeper with the conversation but note we may have ideological differences which could be a conversation-stopper.

I inferred I'd encountered you in the first third of 2022 somewhere? I won't disclose the callsign publicly. If so I might have a relevant and interesting film to discuss and exchange ideas about.

If we are just discussing aircraft performance and its impact on the air combat, it should be completely irrelevant who the individual pilots involved are?

If you want a more personal conversation I'm always happy to take it to PM.

Regards

Badboy
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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: Ki-84-1a v Spitfire Mk VIII
« Reply #14 on: December 31, 2022, 02:31:22 PM »
Easily one of the best fights in AH is the Ki84 vs Spit8 1v1. Great analysis there Badboy. I think you are correct about Ki84s not being aggressive enough early on, infact I see that with a lot of players in the MA in any ride. For the Ki, it can be tough to get slow enough quickly to lower flaps. Its really beneficial to get the flaps out quickly in the Ki84 if you know its going to be a stall fight. However, I almost think its better to fly the spit8 without using flaps until you need them at the top in the rolling scissors. One thing is for sure, generally this fight comes down to pilot skill and knowledge of both aircraft in any given situation. I like both planes but the spit8 is better for training and learning while the ki84 is a little more advanced given its poor diving abilities.
« Last Edit: December 31, 2022, 02:36:31 PM by DmonSlyr »
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