CAF B-17 Midair - Totally Destroyed - Dallas *GRAPHIC*

[Vraciu]

I don't have time yet to check the feed.  Convert to Zulu time to find the right one. 

https://www.liveatc.net/archive.php?m=krbd

The CAF may have been using their own freq.  I don't know.

[DmonSlyr]

I don't have time yet to check the feed.  Convert to Zulu time to find the right one. 

https://www.liveatc.net/archive.php?m=krbd

The CAF may have been using their own freq.  I don't know.

Yeah, I was thinking from the mustang pilots to understand their approach perhaps. The way the videos look to me is that he didn't turn hard enough with the mustangs and it looks like his plane takes a wide nose down turn which happens to be right in the path of the B17. Its looks to me that he didnt ise enough elevator to stick with the mustangs. Just hard to tell without more film and also longer film to see why exactly the p63 wouldn't see the B17 from the start.

[Vraciu]

He had the same spacing from #2 as #2 did from #1.  The B-17 turned in front of the Kingcobra's arc.   It was like two intersecting circles.    Freakish.

[TyFoo]

Dan Gryder is a retired Delta guy. He has had some run in's with the FAA and local authorities over his career. He is pretty abrasive, buttt more often than not makes relevant, valid points.

Juan Browne (Blancolirio) is still an active 777 pilot and has a much better delivery. Both of these guys have enough Youtube followers that they get a lot of "inside" information (most of the time it seems) before the FAA/ NTSB gets it. Juan even speaks to Puma's remark about re-join. 

[Vraciu]

Dan Gryder is a retired Delta guy. He has had some run in's with the FAA and local authorities over his career. He is pretty abrasive, buttt more often than not makes relevant, valid points.

Juan Browne (Blancolirio) is still an active 777 pilot and has a much better delivery. Both of these guys have enough Youtube followers that they get a lot of "inside" information (most of the time it seems) before the FAA/ NTSB gets it. Juan even speaks to Puma's remark about re-join.

Just so we are clear...

There wasn't a rejoin.  He WAS joined up.    He was #3 of 3 fighters that were a formation.   The P-63 was formed up on the two Mustangs for the entire segment of the show.  How these so-called experts don't grasp this is beyond me.

[Puma44]

I've heard Griner had over 35K hours and was a 777 pilot. This True?

If, that’s the case and he’s only flown heavies, there’s a lack of experience talking (and passing judgement).  Hopefully, the feds can come up with more answers about how the basic situational awareness was lost. 

[Vraciu]

If, that’s the case and he’s only flown heavies, there’s a lack of experience talking (and passing judgement).  Hopefully, the feds can come up with more answers about how the basic situational awareness was lost.

The same way it was lost when the Thunderbirds flew a diamond of T-38s line-abreast into the desert.   If the wingman is focused on the leader at the exclusion of all else...

[Puma44]

I'm thinking it was an elevator that went bad. Or his controls locked up. That's my best guess.

Loss of situational awareness….very basic.  Watching the videos, it’s clear he had control of the aircraft.  Locked up controls would most likely have shown the P-63 spear the dirt.  He was belly up and didn’t see what was coming.

[TyFoo]

I didn't say there was or wasn't a rejoin, I simply remarked Juan discussed it on his channel. Its ok to discuss other elements of a mishap, whether they are applicable or not. It answers questions others may have whether their questions are relevant or not.

Having said that - the P63 was belly up and I believe that is very relevant.

As for Gryder, I don't defend him, but he owns a DC3 and gives instruction in it. He has - as a rounded foundation in flying as anybody, Beech 18 time, cargo flying to earn hours etc. He is no slouch for experience and hours, just eclectic and abrasive.

I find it difficult to watch Gryders channel but as I said he hits the mark more than not. For me, I watch because of the speed at which information he and Blanco become privy too and share (photos, recordings, and video) is quite remarkable. 

[DmonSlyr]

Loss of situational awareness….very basic.  Watching the videos, it’s clear he had control of the aircraft.  Locked up controls would most likely have shown the P-63 spear the dirt.  He was belly up and didn’t see what was coming.

Ah, I was thinking maybe his elevator froze and he wasn't able to get as much lift for the turn, like in AH when you lose an elevator and cannot turn as well. Thats just what it seems like to me because he didnt turn as sharp as the P51s. At least that what it appears to me in the video starting at .06. Will certainly be interesting to see what they come up with in the investigation.

[Vraciu]

V, he wasn't expecting the B-17 to be there.  That's clear.    The Lead Mustang has some responsibility for where his formation goes.

[Busher]

Loss of situational awareness….very basic.  Watching the videos, it’s clear he had control of the aircraft.  Locked up controls would most likely have shown the P-63 spear the dirt.  He was belly up and didn’t see what was coming.

I am supporting Puma's points completely. While I accumulated over 30,000 flight hours, precious little is close formation flying and to my understanding, only Puma has extensive experience/training in this type of flying.
I would appreciate hearing Puma's comments about how large speed and performance differences can make flying in close proximity more difficult and even dangerous.
A simple tenet of aviation, "Never let an airplane take you to a place that your brain didn't get to visit five minutes earlier."

[Puma44]

Appears the P-63 got out of position for whatever reason and was descending while attempting to regaining position.  A wingman should never get low relative to lead in a low altitude environment.  Too much potential for an inadvertent ground or other obstacle strike.  A wingman’s primary responsibility is to maintain sight of lead.  The event looks like the pilot was padlocked on lead, and in conjunction with loss of SA, resulted in disastrous results. 

No doubt, the feds are already looking at the formation briefing and what the flight lead briefed his wingman.  Every complete formation briefing should include lost wingman procedures in the event of loss of visual, even in day VFR conditions.  “Lose sight.  Lose fight”.

A host of questions to be answered.

[Vraciu]

Appears the P-63 got out of position for whatever reason and was descending while attempting to regaining position.  A wingman should never get low relative to lead in a low altitude environment.  Too much potential for an inadvertent ground or other obstacle strike.  A wingman’s primary responsibility is to maintain sight of lead.  The event looks like the pilot was padlocked on lead, and in conjunction with loss of SA, resulted in disastrous results. 

No doubt, the feds are already looking at the formation briefing and what the flight lead briefed his wingman.  Every complete formation briefing should include lost wingman procedures in the event of loss of visual, even in day VFR conditions.  “Lose sight.  Lose fight”.

A host of questions to be answered.

I guess we will continue to ignore the data. 

At first glance the log shows the P-63 at or above the preceding fighters. He was descending relative to HIMSELF but was (at the lowest point) level with the #2. 

Lead dragged the formation down based on what I am seeing. 

That may change with new info but for now that's my view.  (The Kingcobra was level or above the two Mustangs based on the film, too.)

Also,  he was not descending to regain position.   He was clearly in position based on the #2 Mustang's interval.   They are IDENTICALLY spaced. 

It would be interesting to know if the B-17 was the reference aircraft that everyone was using as a reference--including the lead Mustang.

[Puma44]

I am supporting Puma's points completely. While I accumulated over 30,000 flight hours, precious little is close formation flying and to my understanding, only Puma has extensive experience/training in this type of flying.
I would appreciate hearing Puma's comments about how large speed and performance differences can make flying in close proximity more difficult and even dangerous.
A simple tenet of aviation, "Never let an airplane take you to a place that your brain didn't get to visit five minutes earlier."

Busher, the basic answer is an appropriate speed all aircraft in the formation can maintain safe control.

If you’ve ever seen the Heritage Flight displays at air shows, you’ll see WWII aircraft in a formation mix of aircraft from then to the Korean War to todays latest and greatest.  The WWII fighters are peddling as fast as they can to maintain control and fly close formation.  A lot of training and proficiency are required to make it look good and be safe.  That is why a Heritage Flight Training Conference is held every year at Davis Monthan AFB to train new pilots and gain proficiency for the established pilots.  As can be seen here the fast movers are somewhat “slow flying” to stay in formation.

I my F-106 squadron, we had four T-33s which were used as intercept targets for the Sixes.  We would routinely return from the working airspace with a mixed formation like this. The six pilot would have to slow to about 250 knots for the T Bird to stay in formation.