Author Topic: We killed the tomcat... what's left?  (Read 4059 times)

Offline -gg-

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #30 on: March 25, 2023, 07:42:12 PM »
Yeah Tig, I guess we need more Tomcats with those Phoenix missiles (which failed each time we used them in combat).

F-14's. That's what we need.

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Offline Tig

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #31 on: March 25, 2023, 07:47:33 PM »
If not for the F-35 China would have already invaded Taiwan.

Prove me wrong.

There's no way for you to prove that or anyone to disprove that, it's a "what if" scenario.

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Offline -gg-

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #32 on: March 25, 2023, 08:38:09 PM »
Tig, how do you think the F-14, or f-15 or f-16 would do against an f-35?

4th gen planes are not even a challenge to the F-35. The tools and integration of information that f-35 pilots have - the MUCH better radars and avionics. It's not even a contest.

The f-35 is a multi-role TACTICAL fighter. The kind of thing we actually use in the wars we fight. The F-35 pilot has an unquestionably VASTLY better informed picture of the battle space and situational awareness than any 4th gen fighter.

There's no better tactical fighter on earth.


 
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Offline -gg-

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #33 on: March 25, 2023, 08:57:22 PM »
Consider what the f-117 did in Iraq.

It went into a highly contested airspace to begin the crippling attack on Iraq. There were only 59 117 ever made as production versions. I think we had 36 in Iraq and they hit a big percentage of the main targets and took down Iraq's defenses - with no losses.

There are over 900 F-35's in service.

The first Red Flag they participated in, they had a 20-1 kill ratio in a realistic - highly contested battle space. They took out ground targets as well as fighters with ease. Surface to air missiles too.

https://theaviationist.com/2017/02/28/red-flag-confirmed-f-35-dominance-with-a-201-kill-ratio-u-s-air-force-says/

Indeed, while early reports suggested a 15-1 kill ratio recent Air Force testimony by Lt. Gen. Jerry D. Harris, Vice Commander of Air Combat Command characterized the kill ratio as “20-1” meaning that, for one F-35A “lost” in simulated combat in a high threat environment that the aircraft destroyed 20 simulated enemy aircraft.

During the same testimony, U.S. Marine Lt. Gen. Jon M. Davis, Deputy Commandant for Aviation, related a 24-0 kill ratio for U.S. Marine F-35B aircraft during a different exercise.

Whereas the air superiority scenario has not been disclosed (therefore, the above mentioned kill ratio should be taken with a grain of salt, as always when it deals with mock air-to-air engagements…), other details of the F-35As specific missions during the exercise are beginning to emerge from Red Flag 17-1.

The recently revealed reports suggest that large-scale F-35A strikes were conducted in a highly contested/denied aerial environment. Air Force F-35As penetrated denied airspace and directed standoff weapons from B-1B heavy bombers flying outside the denied airspace. Those strikes destroyed simulated surface to air weapons systems. This suggests some of the exercises were an example of a “first day of war” scenario where Air Force F-35As spearheaded an attack on a heavily defended target set both in the air and on the ground. The F-35As entered the denied airspace and engaged both aerial and ground targets, not only with weapons they carried but also with weapons launched from other platforms such as the B-1Bs as they loitered just outside the threat environment acting as “bomb trucks.”

USAF Capt. Tim Six, and F-35A pilots of the 388th Fighter Wing from Hill AFB, alluded to the “Sensor fusion both on-board, and off-board the aircraft” when he discussed the F-35A’s expanding envelope of strike and inter-operable capabilities.


This demonstration of F-35A capabilities counters an ongoing trend in the development of air defense networks for potential western adversaries. To a much greater degree than the F-117A Nighthawk defined the opening hours of the first Gulf War by penetrating Iraqi Air defenses and striking strategic targets with precision and stealth the F-35A expanded on that strike capability during this Red Flag according to the flying branch’s post-exercise statements.

At Red Flag 17-1 the F-35A also included additional roles previously reserved for air superiority aircraft like the F-15C Eagle and heavy strike capability from large bombers while even performing “light AWACS” duties.

“I flew a mission where our four-ship formation of F-35A’s destroyed five surface-to-air threats in a 15-minute period without being targeted once,” Major James Schmidt, an F-35A pilot for the 388th Fighter Wing from Hill AFB told the Air Force Times.

“After almost every mission, we shake our heads and smile, saying ‘We can’t believe we just did that’ Schmidt told reporters.




« Last Edit: March 25, 2023, 10:17:09 PM by -gg- »
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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #34 on: March 25, 2023, 10:19:47 PM »
Curious why the F18 ain't in the discussion. That's what they fly out of Portland. I'm thinking that would do wonders around the F14 and F16. Curious how that matches vs a F35. Something tells me the stick time behind the F18 and F16 would give the F35 pilots a run for their money. Systems are one thing, but utilizing them effectively and efficiently is the key and I'm not sure how much advantage you'd have over a very skilled F18 squad if you had a relatively new F35 squad.
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Offline -gg-

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #35 on: March 25, 2023, 10:21:53 PM »
Here is an account of a more recent Red Flag

https://www.businessinsider.com/the-f-35-tore-apart-fourth-gen-fighters-in-major-combat-exercise-usaf-2019-2

US Air Force F-35s wrecked their enemies in mock air combat — even the new pilots were racking up kills against simulated near-peer threats

The US Air Force put the F-35 up against "the most advanced weapons systems out there" during the recent Red Flag air combat exercise, and the fight-generation stealth fighters apparently dominated — so much so that even the rookie pilots were crushing it.

Pilots from the 388th Fighter Wing's 4th Fighter Squadron took to the skies in upgraded F-35A Lightning II Joint Strike Fighters, integrating into a "Blue Force" consisting of fifth and fourth-generation fighters for a "counter air" mission against a "Red Force" made up of "equally capable" fighters.

During the intense fight, aggressor aircraft blinded many of the "blue" fourth-generation aircraft using electronic attack capabilities, such as those advanced adversaries might employ in battle.

"Even in this extremely challenging environment, the F-35 didn’t have many difficulties doing its job," Col. Joshua Wood, 388th Operations Group commander, explained in a US Air Force statement summarizing the exercise results.

Novice F-35 pilots were able to step in and save more experienced friendly fourth-generation fighter pilots while racking up kills against simulated near-peer threats.

"My wingman was a brand new F-35A pilot, seven or eight flights out of training," Wood said, recounting his experiences. "He gets on the radio and tells an experienced 3,000-hour pilot in a very capable fourth-generation aircraft. 'Hey bud, you need to turn around. You’re about to die. There’s a threat off your nose.'"

That young pilot took out the enemy aircraft and then went on to pick up three more "kills" during the mission, which lasted for an hour. "I've never seen anything like it before," Wood added.


The latest iteration of Red Flag — a multinational exercise aimed at training pilots to defeat enemy aircraft, integrated air-defense systems, and electronic and information warfare tactics — was said to be "exponentially more challenging" than past drills, as they were specifically intended to simulate real combat against a more serious threat like Russia or China. The pilots waged simulated war in contested environments characterized by electronic attack, communications jamming, and GPS denial.


"Those situations highlight the fifth-generation capabilities of the F-35. We’re still able to operate and be successful," Lt. Col. Yosef Morris, the 4th Fighter Squadron commander, said in a US Air Force statement.

The F-35A participated in Red Flag, the service's top air combat exercise, for the first time two years ago. At that time, the powerful stealth aircraft was only at its initial operating capability, yet it still destroyed the opposition with a 20:1 kill ratio.

This year, pilots were flying F-35s with upgrades offering improved combat capabilities and maneuverability, making the aircraft more lethal in air combat. The Block 3F software upgrades brought the aircraft up to full warfighting capability.

The F-35A is "exceeding our expectations when it comes to not only being able to survive, but to prosecute targets," Air Force Chief of Staff Gen. Dave Goldfein said Tuesday, according to Air Force Times.
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #36 on: March 25, 2023, 10:49:03 PM »
Out in the real world of fighters, a common saying is “Hamburger is hamburger, no matter what you wrap it in”.


Yeah, but really, what do you know?

Geez, kids today...

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Offline Puma44

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #37 on: March 25, 2023, 11:08:21 PM »

Yeah, but really, what do you know?

Geez, kids today...

- oldman

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Offline Eagler

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #38 on: March 26, 2023, 07:43:46 AM »
When hypersonic missiles take out air bases and carriers where are you launching your planes from?

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Offline AKIron

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #39 on: March 26, 2023, 09:24:30 AM »
Grim Reapers did an interesting what if scenario a while back. China will have to deal with Kadena at some point if they want Taiwan. Of course this sim is pretty crude when it comes to realistic predictions.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aLHcSV8KUzc
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Offline Tig

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #40 on: March 26, 2023, 09:25:58 AM »
Tig, how do you think the F-14, or f-15 or f-16 would do against an f-35?

Depending on how good the pilots are, anything could happen.

Yes F-35s are performing quite well at Red Flag, where there are tons of known and controlled variables. You think the F-4 Phantom didn't perform well in trials before the Vietnam War? Then they went up against an enemy that knew how to play their rules of engagement and tactics, and thus the supposedly unstoppable US air power machine went down to a 2:1 K/D against so called "obsolete" technology.
What changed to exponentially increase their kills? Tactics

Sometimes something as simple as a bad weather system or a crude forward air base can make all the difference. Remember a few years back when F-35s couldn't even fly into lightning storms?

Regarding the F-117s: They were not infallible if you look outside the Iraq War, seriously, look up the Serbian F-117 shootdown. Tactics and the people executing them are everything.

I really don't have a problem with you saying the F-35 has some considerable strengths- it does! But saying it's the be-all end-all is just naive.

At the end of the day, a bad pilot making a mistake can crash or get shot down by one bad decision, no matter how advanced his/her plane is.
Likewise, flying 200kts at 5k feet into enemy territory could also get an extremely advanced fighter killed. However unlikely these scenarios are, they exist, the technology doesn't always win, and if you aren't going to admit that, then I don't think I have anything else to say  :cheers:

Have a nice day  :airplane:

P.S - you never answered me about the 'F-35s are the only reason China hasn't invaded Taiwan yet'
« Last Edit: March 26, 2023, 09:27:51 AM by Tig »
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Offline Spikes

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #41 on: March 26, 2023, 09:57:20 AM »

P.S - you never answered me about the 'F-35s are the only reason China hasn't invaded Taiwan yet'

That wasn't gg that said that. And there wasn't even a question to answer.

Oh the irony..what about the multiple questions I asked you and points I brought up in my post, will you address them?

Red Flag is all we've got and all we've had for some time. It is ridiculously stupid to want these planes to actually have to prove themselves in a real war. The ideal situation is that it never happens.
« Last Edit: March 26, 2023, 10:04:28 AM by Spikes »
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Offline -gg-

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #42 on: March 26, 2023, 09:57:25 AM »
Depending on how good the pilots are, anything could happen.

Yes F-35s are performing quite well at Red Flag, where there are tons of known and controlled variables. You think the F-4 Phantom didn't perform well in trials before the Vietnam War? Then they went up against an enemy that knew how to play their rules of engagement and tactics, and thus the supposedly unstoppable US air power machine went down to a 2:1 K/D against so called "obsolete" technology.
What changed to exponentially increase their kills? Tactics

Sometimes something as simple as a bad weather system or a crude forward air base can make all the difference. Remember a few years back when F-35s couldn't even fly into lightning storms?

Regarding the F-117s: They were not infallible if you look outside the Iraq War, seriously, look up the Serbian F-117 shootdown. Tactics and the people executing them are everything.

I really don't have a problem with you saying the F-35 has some considerable strengths- it does! But saying it's the be-all end-all is just naive.

At the end of the day, a bad pilot making a mistake can crash or get shot down by one bad decision, no matter how advanced his/her plane is.
Likewise, flying 200kts at 5k feet into enemy territory could also get an extremely advanced fighter killed. However unlikely these scenarios are, they exist, the technology doesn't always win, and if you aren't going to admit that, then I don't think I have anything else to say  :cheers:

Have a nice day  :airplane:

P.S - you never answered me about the 'F-35s are the only reason China hasn't invaded Taiwan yet'


You made my argument. Tactics. The F-35 is a system, Extreme situational awareness with the radar signature of a golf ball. It's a total situational awareness system.

The Red Flag scenarios pitted the F-35 against our best 4th gen fighters and the 4th gen fighters never had a chance. And that scenario happens anytime they fight a simulated fight. The pilots in the 4th gen planes never even see what hit them.

The f-33 radar and avionics are beyond compare. They have off-boresite lock and kill ability. They can track and shoot down planes that are BEHIND them.

The F-117 was not flawless? What plane is? I've never claimed stealth was flawless, but what those 36 F-117's did in Iraq was unprecedented.

Killing from beyond visual range is what this is about. Kill the other planes before they can even know you're there.


European  countries picked the F-35 over their very best domestic fighters because nothing they have or plan to have can compete with the f-35
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Offline morfiend

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #43 on: March 26, 2023, 10:47:00 AM »
:rofl :airplane:



Yup you just don’t get it…. You were just an undercooked rump roast!   :devil  But I know you had a genie in a bottle who always said yes master.  :joystick:


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Offline -gg-

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #44 on: March 26, 2023, 12:47:58 PM »
This is part of what I've been saying and this is one of the reasons no other aircraft can compete. Most of the F-35s capabilities are highly classified.


Quote
the F-35 is an airborne command and control centre - it can track you using satellite, other aircraft, ground stations, naval assets etc etc without even firing up its' own radar and it can both fire and guide munitions from those same assets without even opening a weapons bay

and it can do that from thousands of miles away and doesn't even need to be airborne to do so
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