Author Topic: We killed the tomcat... what's left?  (Read 4058 times)

Offline TyFoo

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #45 on: March 26, 2023, 01:03:25 PM »
Curious why the F18 ain't in the discussion. That's what they fly out of Portland. I'm thinking that would do wonders around the F14 and F16.

The 142nd Air Guard out of PDX and 173rd Air Guard out of LMT fly the F-15. I don't believe the F18 has ever been in the Airforce inventory.

Squadrons from NAS Lemoore, MCAS Miramar and occasionally the TOP Gun squad out of NAS Fallon fly adversarial missions against the Air Guard, and when detached will base their aircraft at PDX during the mission.

The F18 has primarily been a Navy/ Marine, Fighter/ Attack and with the addition of the Growler an Electronic Counter Measure aircraft. Initially replacing the A6, A7, and then the F14 & EA-6B.

Offline Rocco

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #46 on: March 26, 2023, 03:15:18 PM »
I would argue it's the proper tools for the job, and in a real fight the F-35 has its place but I doubt would take on every role. The F-35 was designed as a day 1 strike fighter, to go in to areas where the enemy capabilities are at full strength and 4th gen aircraft survivability would be very low. Once the threat level is lower then the cheaper and more numerous 4th gen F-16s, F/A-18s, A-10s can go in to clean up. First choice for air superiority would be the F-22. That's what it was built to do and pretty much all their pilots train to do. As the threat level lowers then F-15s would pick up the slack. Depending on the theatre, there would also be Rafales, Typhoons and maybe even Gripens in the mix. All very capable modern aircraft.

I think there is a lot of evidence to show that although the aircraft you're flying can give you an advantage, it's the pilot at the controls (and their training) that makes the difference. WWII I firmly believe it was Allied doctrine to pull experienced aces off the front lines and make them instructors that made the biggest difference. Instead of using that one ace to try to rack up as many kills as they can until they have a bad day, then that experience is gone forever, send him home to make 100 more just like him. Allied aircraft were not overwhelmingly superior to Axis aircraft by the end of the war, we see it in the MA all the time where an expertly flown K4 or Dora can mop the floor with anything the Allies have.

Even more modern examples, 4th gen aircraft have scored kills on F-22s and F35s during training. I've even heard of T-38s getting kills on F-22s on the odd day where the T-38 pilot is on top of their game and nothing's going right for the F-22 pilot. This is pure speculation (really most of this post is) but I would think in major ops like Red Flag where the world is watching, the powers that be are going to stack the deck to make sure bluefor looks as good as possible.

That's not knocking the F-35. I think it does what it was designed to do very well and has a lot of things going for it that helps the pilot do their thing and get home safe. But IMO it was hampered by the requirement that 3 very different aircraft must fit in the same airframe. Some sacrifices were made in performance and capabilities that could have been avoided if 3 separate aircraft had been developed.

Anyway that's my very non-expert opinion
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Offline -gg-

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #47 on: March 26, 2023, 04:43:00 PM »
The performance sacrifices are almost all because of stealth and carrying all fuel and weapons internally.
4th gen planes can't fly at the rated speeds when loaded. Their top speed and performance stats are at clean configurations.

Still, the F-35 is meant to be a tactical attack/fighter platform. The F-22 was supposed to be the fighter. Now we will have the Next generation fighter that has already been flown.

We are building one hell of an air capability that no other nation has or will have. We have numbers, quality, quantity AND training in our favor.

« Last Edit: March 26, 2023, 04:48:04 PM by -gg- »
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Offline Puma44

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #48 on: March 26, 2023, 09:46:51 PM »
The 142nd Air Guard out of PDX and 173rd Air Guard out of LMT fly the F-15. I don't believe the F18 has ever been in the Airforce inventory.

True statement.



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Offline Puma44

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #49 on: March 27, 2023, 01:27:26 AM »
But I know you had a genie in a bottle who always said yes master.  :joystick:
:salute

Ahhhh yes, the all knowing, all glowing Genie.  :D



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Offline GasTeddy

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #50 on: March 27, 2023, 05:32:51 AM »
You need to reintroduce BW-239, as it has the best kill ratio of all time.

Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #51 on: March 27, 2023, 10:08:26 AM »
True statement.

Could have swarn those were F18s lol. Thought somone told me they were F18s as well. Never got close enough to tell personally. Figured they should all be flying those by now. I always thought it was strange the Airforce was flying F18s but I guess they were F15s after all. Woops!
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Offline Peabody

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #52 on: March 30, 2023, 06:01:56 PM »
Looks like all models of the “Bestest ever Fighter” need new engines. Waste of money just like the V-22 program. Gotta keep the corporate industrial war machine chugging along.

https://www.thedrive.com/the-war-zone/f-35-engine-running-too-hot-due-to-under-speccing-upgrade-now-vital
« Last Edit: March 30, 2023, 06:03:51 PM by Peabody »

Offline Eagler

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #53 on: March 31, 2023, 07:27:47 AM »
It's all about the $$$$$$

See the bogeyman...we need nore $$$$$

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Offline Puma44

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #54 on: March 31, 2023, 01:14:52 PM »
Could have swarn those were F18s lol. Thought somone told me they were F18s as well. Never got close enough to tell personally. Figured they should all be flying those by now. I always thought it was strange the Airforce was flying F18s but I guess they were F15s after all. Woops!

Not a problem.  The unit has been in Eagles since transitioning from the mighty Phantom.



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Offline Peabody

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #55 on: March 31, 2023, 01:29:18 PM »

Offline sparky127

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #56 on: March 31, 2023, 02:25:21 PM »
That F4 has to be about 2mph above stall...

Offline save

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #57 on: April 11, 2023, 09:50:12 AM »
You should read RUSI report.

https://rusi.org/explore-our-research/publications/whitehall-reports/regenerating-warfighting-credibility-european-nato-air-forces


Professor Justin Bronk points out Airforces needs to be built on mulitple dispersed airbases and not on a few large bases, easily taken out by saturating them with missiles, drone etc, much like the Finnish and Swedish Airforces are doing since the cold war.

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Offline Gman

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #58 on: April 12, 2023, 04:50:41 PM »
Re the OP - The US DOD is currently developing 6 new air to air missiles.

-The already mentioned Aim 260.
-Long-Range Engagement Weapon (LREW)
-Peregrine Air-to-Air missile
-Modular Advanced Missile (MAM)
-Lockheed Martin’s Cuda
-Long-Range Air-to-Air Missile (LRAAM)

https://www.sandboxx.us/blog/america-has-6-new-air-to-air-missiles-headed-for-service/

Considering the most current model Aim120 AMRAAM has been hitting targets at >Aim54 Pheonix ranges, the upcoming missiles should have pretty incredible capabilities.

Sticking them in the bays of the F35, F22, and upcoming NGAD, will likely ensure US/NATO overmatch vs Russia/China.  That is so long as we don't let China steal that tech, like they've stolen virtually everything else through hacking, coercion, donations, etc. 

« Last Edit: April 12, 2023, 04:53:32 PM by Gman »

Offline alskahawk

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Re: We killed the tomcat... what's left?
« Reply #59 on: April 15, 2023, 08:20:43 PM »
 in the works now is the sixth gen fighters. The F22 is 5th Gen (I think) It's getting to that point where science fiction is becoming reality. Now they are looking at control planes that are human manned but they control a number of drones. This is addition to the drones that are controlled from a remote sight.

 Russia's SU 57 (I think that's the right number) Is their answer to the F22. But given their training, my bet is on our guys. The F22 is amazing. But Russia and China are both looking to counter it. But they are at least a generation behind it.