How to lead your target in AH3......DON'T!!

[trogdor]

Watch this amazing shot. 109G14 kills me (spit14) with (almost) no lead! Who knew it was this easy? Just put your pipper on the plane and then vigorously pump your stick to make sure f$!#-all could actually hit.....and BOOM! You win!

Watching from either the 109's or the spit14's viewpoint, this is clearly a missed shot, but slow the film waaaaay down and see just how awful it really is.
The 109 pulls barely 50mils of lead angle (1 gunsight radius) at t = 6.0 sec. That is 1/3 of the lead angle necessary to hit the spitfire at the speeds both aircraft are traveling, given the 90deg angle between flight paths.

If you want to know how I know this, it's because I can MATHs. It's just a little trigonometry. (But feel free to pm me and ask me to e-mail you my lead-calculation spreadsheet (excel) if you want to see a useful tool I made for estimating aim lead in air combat.)

As time progresses after 6 seconds in, the 109's nose falls even and then behind me, yet somehow scores a kill.

HTC, please explain. The math doesn't work for normal ping times and variance being the reason for not having to lead your target as shown here (and in countless other encounters with this player).

Anyone else understand what's going on here? What am I missing?

Thx,
trogdor

[oboe]

I *think* it stems from the fact that this is your film, made on YOUR front end, and the hit/kill on your a/c was calculated and recorded on his FE.

Not positive, but I think that's why it appears like an impossible shot to you.  I think we'd need to see HIS film to compare. 

[Judge]

How long has Trog been playing this game? He's never seen this before?

On my end. it looked nothing like the Video he posted. I was smooth and waiting for him to cross in front of my piper and let out a burst..

Unfortunately I didn't film the sortie...

Here's a film of Trog shooting at me... He just didn't get lucky. I doubt he was jerking his stick like this!

[CptTrips]

Same reason one plane can register a collision and the other plane involved did not.

[Judge]

Trog said I made a 90 degree angle shot..

"If you want to know how I know this, it's because I can MATHs"

Maybe in Clown World!

 

[oboe]

Trog's a good guy, just frustrated.  Happens to all of us at some point.

There were a lot of jam packed fights last night - I saw a couple of 1 v 20s against the Bish horde.   That much activity in a small area may contribute to this problem?

I remember way back, BnZ'ing a low slow plane, and every time I dived on him, he disappeared UNDER the water surface - even flew toward shore and flew underground for while.  I was sure this was some kind of hack and sent the film to Skuzzy, but he said it wasn't fishy. 

[Simon]

I can't begrudge someone who can't obtain or afford stable internet, but when they exploit and manipulate it while chest thumping on ch200, it's a little much.

Flying a D9 at 400+ while pulling undulating Gs and ferociously stick-stirring is how you exploit a bad connection. The predictive network model just isn't suitable for that kind of spastic maneuvering, so you have to deal with constant 50-100+ yard warps when you get his six and panic mode sets in.

It's at the point now that if I notice this guy in the same vicinity I'll just up a C-Hog and take my chances with the joust. There is no point trying to dodge the 1,500 yard spray-HO when from his client's perspective you're flying straight and level.

Jousting is also pretty pointless, since his high latency delay causes his death to occur after yours. It also seems to render the collision model ineffective, since almost every time I see "...has collided with you", but not vice-versa, yet he flies on with nothing but an oil leak.

Too bad HT doesn't enforce some minimum jitter/latency/packet-loss standards like most P2P games do.

[trogdor]

Judge, fair points, and they would be valid - if you weren't the only person whose gunnery passes look like this on film. Everybody else I film looks reasonably smooth and show appropriate lead for connecting with the target. 

I'm sure other people, including me, look similar to you. It's your connection that is the problem.

Anyhow, you said you wanted to see the film. So, there it is.

ps - notice you're the only guy in this thread calling people names?

[CptTrips]

I believe you are mistaken.

I've seen plenty of posts over the years from great sticks warning that when you are watching an enemy on your six that even though they don't look like they have sufficient lead for a firing solution that on their end they might have a shot.  Bullet hits are calculated on the attackers FE, not the defenders, so you have to allow for a margin of safety on angles.

Position and angle updates are not instantaneous. It takes time to transmit data across the internet.  What you see on your FE and what he sees on his FE can vary and be slightly out of sync. 

How many times have we read posts of people accusing others of cheating because they died in a collision but the enemy flew off with zero damage.  Bullet hits are calculated on the attackers FE, but each client calculates their own collisions.  One person sees they two planes colliding, the other sees himself in a slightly different position as so sees no collision.  I have dove across the nose of bombers at high speed, if you are fast enough and cut it close enough the bomber sees you at a position slightly lagging where you see yourself.  He'll see a collision on you FE you just cleared his nose in time. 

Two FE will show slightly different world views.  Most of the time it's close enough that no one realized that. In edge cases at high speeds or within a couple of degrees of rotation there can be a noticeable difference.  That's internet gaming.

On top of that, the film recorder is not infinite resolution.  It is taking a sample of state every so often.  That is it's own type of lag on top of the lag from network transit.

But don't take my word for it, send your film to HTC.  But making uniformed accusation against innocent players is not only unfair, but makes you look silly. 

[CptTrips]

If you spend a few minutes searching on this bbs, you can find this explained ad nauseum. 

Here is a good one, but you could probably find 50-100 similar posts over the years.

A milder form of this problem is when you see the other guy’s nose not quite pointed at you in a turning fight, he’s about 5 degrees off bringing his guns to bear, you’re relieved, then you hear the bullets pepper your airframe…if he’s stomped his rudder into a skid, or simply gained a bit more angle on his F.E., you may not see it. The lesson here is just not to let him near you with those pointy bits on his plane that spit fire.

AH needs a FAQ for stuff like this.

[Eagler]

Judges connection is great for him

I try to remember to take it into account when I encounter him

I usually lose as I am usually lower

His connection gets his shots to me before mine get to him usually

It doesn't look warpy or stick jerking but its actually
 sooner than it looks to me

Add in the 190 monster and his better than average accuracy...best to be on his six

Eagler

[DmonSlyr]

finally able to watch this video. Perhaps Judge was able to get a shot, but it's crazy to me how any bullets connected with that nose wobble shooting, much less insta blow up. Definitely a lucky ping there for sure. The more I watch it, the more I cannot believe a bullet hit that blew you up with that nose wobble.

So if you look at about 6 seconds in, that is about the time he lines up for a shot and when I'd shoot, right at the end of .06 seconds, his first bullets comes out that could possibly be a hit, however it doesn't look like the bullet connected, at 7 seconds, if you go into chase view and external view from Judges point of view, to me, I have no idea how a bullet hit that was able to one ping to tower. The bullets all look like they are behind Trogdor at .07. The only bullet I think that could have hit was the first round at .06  however from Trogs point of view, it looked like many bullets were shooting before he exploded. The only thing I can think of was a delayed reaction where bullets hit and 2 seconds later you got the PW and blew up.. From Judges angle there was a shot at .06, however with the nose bounce and external views that shot appeared to have missed. It was the shot at .07 from the film viewer that somehow connected and insta blew up. It's very tough to tell how a shot connected and blew you up that is for damn sure given that no shot appears to have hit you in the film.

For the record. I'm not calling anyone anything. I am just pointing out that I have no clue what bullet actually hit Trog to blow him up in this film.

[DmonSlyr]

The represents the only bullets that could have hit trog, however he continues to fly for 2 more seconds.


He is now past Trog in this image as his bullets go behind.


Here you can see that Trog is out of shooting range and still not killed.


The first round of bullets at .06 show the only bullet that could have hit Trog, where he got a PW and blew up 2 seconds later.

However it shows that this bullet may have missed.




Here you can see Trog is out of shooting range and still not killed. He blows up a split second after this image.

[The Fugitive]

You can NOT use Trogs film to view TheJudge's angles or views, thats not how the filming works.

Due to lag each persons view is just a bit off, TheJudges a bit more than others  Bullet hits are calculated by the shooters computer. If you had TheJudges film and looked at his view you would see a much better site picture and would be able to see the hits much better.

Some of the better "pilots" try to cut their moves too close. They know what they are looking for in the angle, the E, the speed, and just try to shave every last bit out of a maneuver. However the displacement due to lag bites them in the butt sometimes. Nrshida use to run into the issue more often than most as he was a student of aircombat, and pushed that edge more than most.

Yes The judge has a crappy connection. Yes he gets some odd kills sometimes, but Id rather have one more guy in the air to fight than worry about a crappy connection.

[DmonSlyr]

You can NOT use Trogs film to view TheJudge's angles or views, thats not how the filming works.

Due to lag each persons view is just a bit off, TheJudges a bit more than others  Bullet hits are calculated by the shooters computer. If you had TheJudges film and looked at his view you would see a much better site picture and would be able to see the hits much better.

Some of the better "pilots" try to cut their moves too close. They know what they are looking for in the angle, the E, the speed, and just try to shave every last bit out of a maneuver. However the displacement due to lag bites them in the butt sometimes. Nrshida use to run into the issue more often than most as he was a student of aircombat, and pushed that edge more than most.

Yes The judge has a crappy connection. Yes he gets some odd kills sometimes, but Id rather have one more guy in the air to fight than worry about a crappy connection.

I'd love to see Judges film. My only question is though. Why can you not see any bullet actually hit Trogs plane from his film viewer? To me, that would be a major flaw for situations like this. My last image shows clearly Judge is out of range before trog blows up. What bullet hit Trog?