Author Topic: Combat Pilot  (Read 3778 times)

Offline AKIron

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 12325
Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #30 on: October 01, 2023, 08:55:18 AM »
First person shooters (ground) are always going to eclipse complex flight sims in popularity. Will there ever be a game that offers both at the highest levels of realism on the same battlefield? Does there need to be? I'm happy to script AI ground force actions and reactions. Air units also though real people make for more fun in that role. Interesting how AH focuses on Air with ground forces a tangent and WWII Online vice versa.
Here we put salt on Margaritas, not sidewalks.

Offline Dadtallica

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1340
Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #31 on: October 01, 2023, 09:13:50 AM »
Battlefield 1942 came pretty close way back. The flight sim part was pretty basic though but I still wore that game out.
Back in 2022 after a loooooong break from 2010. Old name Ratpack, same for the BBS.

Squad I did the most tours with were the Excaliburs then The 172nd Rabid Dogs. Still trying to talk Illigaf, Coola, Oldman22, and Joecrow into coming back instead of being boring old farts!

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8032
Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #32 on: October 01, 2023, 09:42:30 AM »
Any game could do this.  But I'm not aware of any but AH that do.

Neither do I.  Not in the sense you mean. 

In DCS an lot of Squads will run internal Scenario-lites on a private server kinda like mini-FSO.  The will create a MP mission\scenario and all play through it together as a scheduled event.
It's probably a lot easier to herd cats internally in a large squad than opening it up to rando's.  It's one of the value added things a squad offers is putting on those internal events.

A lot of people try DCS and think there is no MP activity.  There are two main issues. 
1.  I bet they are not running the latest open beta version.  99.99% of populated servers run the OB.  If you aren't running it, you only see a small percentage of the servers that no one goes on.
2.  A lot of the activity is private internal squad scenarios.  That is just part of their DNA because all the servers are currently player run.

I believe most of what you said DCS has or it can be built with scripting or will eventually be added by ED.  There is custom scoring you can setup.  I don't know about custom hardness.  It think that would be against their high fidelity fetish.  They want a given weapon to have the documented effect that it was intended and documented to have.  I understand the value but that would probably be theirs view.

I know custom controllable dynamics weather is coming.  I don't remember being able to change weather mid mission in AH.  That could have interesting uses.

I've worked a good bit over the years with AH arena configs and weather files and the mission editor etc.  I have some insight.  I don't know there would be any special problems at least doing basic scenarios.  AH didn't have everything day one either. 

The scripting layer is an order of magnitude more powerful than anything I saw in the AH ME.  Most of the simulation engine is exposed to code you can write in Lua. And there are very powerful abstracted frameworks players have built on top of that to give even more powerful flexibility and ease of use.  The one I have been learning is called, MOOSE.
https://flightcontrol-master.github.io/MOOSE_DOCS/Documentation/index.html

The main problem is the cultural tradition.  DCS started as mainly SP focused and has added MP.  AH was always MP focused.  And Hitech has has 20 or so years head-start on catering to Scenarios.  So DCS is still learning about the MP world.

However as DCS is shifting to making MP a first class citizen of their design priorities, I suspect you will start to see them develop those traditions.  I believe they have or players could add the support.  They will develop the experience of running scenarios of increasing complexity.  The squad I'm in already does simple ones.

The two main roadblocks I see are:

1.  The cadre of experienced CM's, the tradition of Scenarios that need to be inoculated into their community.
2.  The fact there is not concept of player created maps.  That one I don't see changing.

Player created maps are a double edged sword.  It add flexibility, but it also ends up pretty low resolution and kinda has a blocky look like it was made with legos.  DCS maps can't be user created, but are vastly higher resolution and detail.  I understand the advantage of the AH approach, but I think that is lost on potential customers.  What they see is the terrain doesn't look as nice.  That is part of what turns potential players off.  I'm not suggesting changing that though.

But AH Scenarios have had to make substitutions on airframes and maps too.  So you do what you can with what you got.

I hope as other sims develop Scenario traditions they don't fall into the trap that is can only be an actual historical event and the idea of what-if scenarios are verboten.  I think that is unnecessarily limiting and ends up with a set of scenarios that get run over and over and over again over 20 years.  I think you should unlock your designers creativity and allow both.  I can see a both historical and what-if Scenarios being enjoyable.  But that is a YP not a MP.

I would be amazed if CP didn't implement what was necessary to run scenarios.  I'll at least be adding my gad-fly suggestions in their discord community as they develop. 

But yes, the AH scenarios are currently without equal.  I could give a hang if the 3-chess-piece Melee drops dead.  But I hope AH is around for years to come mainly as a beacon to show the rest of the combat sim community what Scenarios can be and challenge them to a higher standard.

No matter how much you love AH, it will end someday.  All things end.  I hate to break it to the fan bois, but Hitech is a mortal human, not a demi-god.    If Hitech is a demi-god then certainly his players are mortal and not many new ones are added to make up the lifespan attrition.  Someday AH will end.

I hope before that day the DNA of Scenarios have propagated to the rest of the sim world like it did from previous games to Aces High.  It is a unique simming experience that shouldn't be lost because one single company disappears. For the same reason it would have been a loss it the tradition had died with Air Warrior.

$0.02  I'm not trying to get in a joystick measuring contest, but just trying to answer your question and explain why I don't think there is a fundamental roadblock to producing some level of structured Scenarios on something with the flexibility of DCS.  And I'll be lobbying from day one to add Scenario support as a core design goal from day one to CP.

BTW, Feel free to further express your thoughts, but this is all I have to add to this topic of scenarios in other sims.  There is no benefit in me adding more in this forum.  I only expanded further because your did and I didn't want to be rude and ignore you.  Feel free to PM me sometime if yo want to discuss it further or find me on a neutral forum like Hoggit and we can have a long form discussion.  I always enjoy our interaction.

:salute

« Last Edit: October 01, 2023, 09:49:00 AM by CptTrips »
Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8032
Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #33 on: October 01, 2023, 09:45:37 AM »
Battlefield 1942 came pretty close way back. The flight sim part was pretty basic though but I still wore that game out.

I loved that game.  It was simple and kinda arcadish, but OMG it was just hours and hours of fun.

I still have BF4 installed.  I still love loading that up and doing an afternoon on Golmud Railway!

Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline Spikes

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15646
    • Twitch: Twitch Feed
Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #34 on: October 01, 2023, 10:21:25 AM »
[wall of text]

I think all Brooke is trying to say is that it isn't possible to uproot Scenarios and put them into any other game as they are currently designed (or even close for that matter). It would require removing key aspects that make the events (Scenario and FSO in particular) what they are.
i7-12700k | Gigabyte Z690 GAMING X | 64GB G.Skill DDR4 | EVGA 1080ti FTW3 | H150i Capellix

FlyKommando.com

Offline -gg-

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1872
      • IceCreamOnMars
Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #35 on: October 01, 2023, 10:28:55 AM »
Not really a competitor of AH, at least for years to come.

This is really an interesting interview of a industry insider who produced the IL2 GB series and is now stepping out on his own.  Some interesting insights into this game genre.

Oh and AH gets a brief mention.  I was amazed.



This is a really good interview. This guy but very intelligent and it sounds like he's going to make a really good game.

It's exciting. To see new technology and new graphics and all that applied to a World war II combat Sim. I didn't think I would see that again anytime soon.
Icecreamonmars.com. ICOM for short.

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8032
Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #36 on: October 01, 2023, 10:32:09 AM »
Bleh

I sure some said the same thing about Scenarios moving from Air Warrior to WB and AH.  Everyone always thinks their sims can't be matched.

I guess we'll see what the future holds.

Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8032
Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #37 on: October 01, 2023, 10:36:31 AM »
This is a really good interview. This guy but very intelligent and it sounds like he's going to make a really good game.

It's exciting. To see new technology and new graphics and all that applied to a World war II combat Sim. I didn't think I would see that again anytime soon.

If nothing else, it is a hopeful indication that major movers in the game industry and people willing to risk tens of $millions don't agree with some who say a WWII sim can't be successful.

There is nothing in the broader sim world that would suggest that beyond AH's problem which may not be due to WWII. 

But IL2 had come from roughly the same time era as AH, so it will be interesting to see if they can prove that theory again with a completely new WWII sim.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2023, 10:39:40 AM by CptTrips »
Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline Spikes

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15646
    • Twitch: Twitch Feed
Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #38 on: October 01, 2023, 11:12:18 AM »
I sure some said the same thing about Scenarios moving from Air Warrior to WB and AH.  Everyone always thinks their sims can't be matched.

I guess we'll see what the future holds.


I don't think anyone is saying it can't be done in the future. Again, Brooke's point is currently, in this universe, at this moment, right this second, there isn't another game that can support the way we run our events without drastically changing how they are run (to the point where they are no longer what we know as said event).
i7-12700k | Gigabyte Z690 GAMING X | 64GB G.Skill DDR4 | EVGA 1080ti FTW3 | H150i Capellix

FlyKommando.com

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8032
Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #39 on: October 01, 2023, 11:27:37 AM »
I don't think anyone is saying it can't be done in the future. Again, Brooke's point is currently, in this universe, at this moment, right this second, there isn't another game that can support the way we run our events without drastically changing how they are run (to the point where they are no longer what we know as said event).

Did you not see where I agreed with that?  I already agreed that no one else is doing Scenarios like AH.  That is the point.  It is a single point of failure.  I think Scenarios could be run on other sims. 

Did the very first Scenario run on AW have every single feature and configuration that AH has now?  I don't think so.

Did they run Scenarios though?  Yes.  Did they start the whole concept of Scenarios even with limited tools?  Yes.  Did things advance as Scenarios gained traction?  Yes.

You start with what you got and build as you go. 

Believe what you want.  I believe that other sims should start the Scenario tradition.  I believe they should learn from AH and I hope it is around long enough for them to do so.  I believe something like DCS have enough capability to start the ball rolling.  They won't have every capability that AH has now, but neither did AW or WB or AH at first and that didn't stop any of them from starting their own Scenario tradition.

We're done on this topic.

« Last Edit: October 01, 2023, 12:40:44 PM by CptTrips »
Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline Brooke

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15476
      • http://www.electraforge.com/brooke/
Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #40 on: October 01, 2023, 03:39:02 PM »
Battlefield 1942 came pretty close way back. The flight sim part was pretty basic though but I still wore that game out.

I loved BF 1942.  The aircraft part of it, though, totally sucked.  They are too cartoony to be fun for an AH pilot to fly (in my opinion), and they were way unbalancing for some of the maps.

But the ground combat -- man, that was fun.

I wish BF 1942 was a subscription model so that they would have kept it up and made the servers.  Instead, the "buy it and we are done" model means it only lasts for a while, then the company is onto their next title, and the old one gets no maintenance, bug fixes, updates, etc.

It's always (in my opinion) cool if players can make terrains.  Going back to Quake and Marathon, where you could get tons of player-made maps, which was a blast.

Offline Nefarious

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15858
Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #41 on: October 01, 2023, 04:28:09 PM »
I think all Brooke is trying to say is that it isn't possible to uproot Scenarios and put them into any other game as they are currently designed (or even close for that matter). It would require removing key aspects that make the events (Scenario and FSO in particular) what they are.

I believe IL2GB does it. With more players than AH Scenarios at the moment to boot. Their servers are coming close to FSO numbers.

They run coordinated "events" in Combat Box and FlugPark. I honestly can't tell you anything about them except they exist. But considering the options they have, IL2 definitely has everything they need to run scenarios, except maybe a registration page. They do everything through discord.

There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8032
Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #42 on: October 01, 2023, 04:38:33 PM »
I loved BF 1942.  The aircraft part of it, though, totally sucked.  They are too cartoony to be fun for an AH pilot to fly (in my opinion), and they were way unbalancing for some of the maps.

Agreed.  At the time I had AH for my air fix.  BF was just for goofy fun.  Loved the paratrooper drops. 

I remember  one map had an airfield that all the liddle greedy suckers would pile up trying to be the first to grab the plane when it spawned.  But they would stand there on the runway in a big group with their eyes glued on the spot where they expected the plane to spawn so they could be quickest. 

There was a winding road from another base that approached the airfield from lower ground so you couldn't be seen approaching. I'd take a jeep and haul booty and jumping over that crest at high speed like Dukes of Hazard and mow down as many as I could and just zip on past and egress the target area.  They would get so mad.  I'd plow 5 or 6 on a pass. I called it jeep bowling.  If I was bored, I'd spend an evening with a sixpack just doing that and laughing my arse off. 

Yeah, that was arcadey.  But Arcades can be fun!

I wish BF 1942 was a subscription model so that they would have kept it up and made the servers.  Instead, the "buy it and we are done" model means it only lasts for a while, then the company is onto their next title, and the old one gets no maintenance, bug fixes, updates, etc.

True, but the BF series always got good long term support.  Packed BF4 servers are still running today.  That was a 2013 game.

At least with that model you only pay when there is a product in hand instead of endless monthly payments hoping that someday some wonderful development will occur.  Now, If you are smart you will wait for reviews before handing over your money. 

Or if you are an idiot like me you pre-paid for BF5.  Stop laughing.  And then did it again with BF2042.  I said, stop laughing.  That's my punishment for being an unthinking fanbois. And a slow learner apparently.  ;)

Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.

Offline Animl-AW

  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 2295
      • Animl - YouTube
Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #43 on: October 01, 2023, 04:44:34 PM »
I don't think anyone is saying it can't be done in the future. Again, Brooke's point is currently, in this universe, at this moment, right this second, there isn't another game that can support the way we run our events without drastically changing how they are run (to the point where they are no longer what we know as said event).

This.

The whole reason they only have scripted drone missions (AI).

Think of the expense to buy all those planes "This scenario has a plane I don't own, so I have to buy it to be part of it. BAM! $70" That's just nuts.  Like it or not, others sims have limits that AH doesn't have. This is were subscription pays off.
Master of the Air Scenario Video
https://youtu.be/rQiA2yMiZf0?si=QZEvHGf1Le0YlaHf

Windows 11 Gaming Tweaks
https://imgur.com/oEtVMfP[/

Offline CptTrips

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8032
Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #44 on: October 01, 2023, 04:53:46 PM »
I believe IL2GB does it. With more players than AH Scenarios at the moment to boot. Their servers are coming close to FSO numbers.

They run coordinated "events" in Combat Box and FlugPark. I honestly can't tell you anything about them except they exist. But considering the options they have, IL2 definitely has everything they need to run scenarios, except maybe a registration page. They do everything through discord.

Many use Discord now for that stuff like DDCS (server) they can tie Discord accounts with DCS accounts.  Some servers use that for roles permission validation and prevent spying on coalition chats, etc.  So it is like how the event page ties to the forum account.

There are all kinds of plug-ins and bots you can write to utilize Discord for stuff.  I'm going to delve into that at some point.


Toxic, psychotic, self-aggrandizing drama queens simply aren't worth me spending my time on.