Author Topic: Combat Pilot  (Read 4513 times)

Offline Spikes

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Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #45 on: October 04, 2023, 09:31:03 AM »
I believe IL2GB does it. With more players than AH Scenarios at the moment to boot. Their servers are coming close to FSO numbers.

They run coordinated "events" in Combat Box and FlugPark. I honestly can't tell you anything about them except they exist. But considering the options they have, IL2 definitely has everything they need to run scenarios, except maybe a registration page. They do everything through discord.



It seems like IL2 would be pretty limited as to what events could be run. Seems like Eastern Front is pretty fleshed out, as well as some 9th AF Western Front action/Channel front action. No heavy bombers, so anything 8th AF or 15th AF is out. It looks like some events could be squeezed in around Italy. No Japanese or Blue planes, so anything Pacific is out.

Obviously I'm not faulting the game makers for that - but these are the types of reasons FSOs or Scenarios can't be ripped out 'as is' and placed in another game. For the way we offer events (wide variety of designs and planesets), AH offers the best and only way to run them currently.

Frankly, if I were to pick a game I'd port the events to War Thunder as the game has the planeset to support how we run the events. It also has the "realistic" mode which is much better than the arcade mode you see when you join random battles. The only thing missing (and of course, it's a big thing) is the ability to host servers/events like we do. Ability to set alt caps, have realistic maps, enable/disable flight, etc.
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #46 on: October 04, 2023, 11:44:40 PM »
I looked into Il-2 the other day.

There are some teams that run historical events in Il-2.  I read their sites, not played in any of it, so not sure of exact details.

I think on Il-2, you need a different game or different pack for each location or plane set.  For example, you get IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Kuban for $50 or whatever, and it is the Kuban with 8-10 plane types.  You want something else, say Bodenplatte, that's a different one, another $50, another set of planes.  Etc.

Even then, you are now doing a few Eastern Front battles, Bodenplatte, and Normandy for their current set of games.  If you can get older games, you add a couple Channel Front and a North Africa, it seems.  So, about 8 battle locations.

While Il-2 could do scenarios if they work that functionality into their product line, I doubt they are going to do that.  Because they haven't done so yet in their 22 years of operation.  And their stuff isn't a good fit for scenarios.  It's too restricted in what you can set up.

Offline Nefarious

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Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #47 on: October 05, 2023, 08:01:24 AM »
It seems like IL2 would be pretty limited as to what events could be run. Seems like Eastern Front is pretty fleshed out, as well as some 9th AF Western Front action/Channel front action. No heavy bombers, so anything 8th AF or 15th AF is out. It looks like some events could be squeezed in around Italy. No Japanese or Blue planes, so anything Pacific is out.

Obviously I'm not faulting the game makers for that - but these are the types of reasons FSOs or Scenarios can't be ripped out 'as is' and placed in another game. For the way we offer events (wide variety of designs and planesets), AH offers the best and only way to run them currently.

Frankly, if I were to pick a game I'd port the events to War Thunder as the game has the planeset to support how we run the events. It also has the "realistic" mode which is much better than the arcade mode you see when you join random battles. The only thing missing (and of course, it's a big thing) is the ability to host servers/events like we do. Ability to set alt caps, have realistic maps, enable/disable flight, etc.

IL2 could have ran several of our scenarios over the last few years, possibly more with some fudging of the terrains (just moving physical locations West or East, with no real substitutions). I say that because Aces High terrains lack certain terrain features that really promote realism like IL2 does. IL2 may not have Paris or Berlin cities modeled, but in reality, neither do we. In AH, It's more of a scaled location with a generic game object to represent a city which for AH vets like ourselves suffices, not so much for others.

So in these cases, Yes, I believe IL2 could "rip out" scenarios like Velikye Luki, Battle for Paris, Road to Berlin, Cherkassy Pocket, Win the Winter Sky, etc.

In my opinion, Scenarios that are set in the Mediterranean and Pacific are a complete no-go for IL2, but from the data we have gathered in AH, isn't really a deal breaker, especially when it comes to Pacific. IL2 has the plane set to make a lot of Mediterranean Scenarios, just lacks a terrain(s). 

So, I don't disagree that AH offers the variety that IL2 can't, I would argue that IL2 isn't far behind, or even in some cases, well past AH in the metrics that can be measured and compared. I have never played WT, but it does look more and more interesting honestly.

I looked into Il-2 the other day.

There are some teams that run historical events in Il-2.  I read their sites, not played in any of it, so not sure of exact details.

I think on Il-2, you need a different game or different pack for each location or plane set.  For example, you get IL-2 Sturmovik: Battle of Kuban for $50 or whatever, and it is the Kuban with 8-10 plane types.  You want something else, say Bodenplatte, that's a different one, another $50, another set of planes.  Etc.

Even then, you are now doing a few Eastern Front battles, Bodenplatte, and Normandy for their current set of games.  If you can get older games, you add a couple Channel Front and a North Africa, it seems.  So, about 8 battle locations.

While Il-2 could do scenarios if they work that functionality into their product line, I doubt they are going to do that.  Because they haven't done so yet in their 22 years of operation.  And their stuff isn't a good fit for scenarios.  It's too restricted in what you can set up.

In IL2 you can play in any online server that isn't password protected without having the terrain - You just have to have one of the available aircraft to actually launch. For example, if I have the Fw 190A-5, I can fly in any server that has the Fw 190A-5 enabled, regardless of terrain or game ownership. When you exit the server, you lose access to that terrain offline.

Official Terrain list:

Arras 1918
Western Front 1918
Moscow 41-42 (2 seasons)
Stalingrad 42-43 (3 seasons)
Velikye Luki 43-43
Kuban 43 (2 seasons)
Prokhorovka 43 (this is more of a GV map but aircraft can certainly be used)
Normandy 44 (2 seasons)
Rhienland 44-45 (4 seasons)
Novosokolniki 42-43 (another GV map)


As far as costs go, that can be complex comparing the two. I own every IL2GB game - Moscow, Stalingrad, Kuban, Boddenplatte, Normandy, Tank Crew, and Flying Circus I, II, III as well as several of the individual collector aircraft and vehicles, as well as some of their scripted campaigns. Some I bought early access too, so I saved a little bit on the overall costs, others I bought in their annual sales they hold where stuff is typically 50% off.

I would say I have spent around $600 in total on the IL2GB series since 2016. Compared to Aces High, that's only about 3.5 years of your AH subscription. I will add, I am blessed to have the support of HT and the special events community to be a CM, but I have been here for 23 years. If you have been here longer than 3 and a half years then you will have invested more of your money or volunteer duties than you would have spent on IL2. And if you have only been here for 3.5 years you have seen zero new aircraft, and maybe only one revamped/remodeled existing aircraft.

Let us not forget, HT is not in the business of Scenarios or special events. That falls squarely on the volunteer player base. HT has never written or hosted a scenario like me or you. He only provides the canvas. Sure, he has made improvements and upgrades that make it easier for us and the players, but in the end scenarios don't come with Aces High without people like you and Spikes.

I'm not here to convince anyone that one is better than the others. I haven't flown either Aces High or IL2 in over 3 weeks, DCS even longer. I am at that point in my life that I have seen others, where they have too much going on in life with real life and family. I now know why others take these breaks or step away, I never really understood that until I had a child.

I like Aces High special events because of the community and camaraderie, it is where it's at. But that will change as it's not going to last forever, or even much longer, (sorry) and someone else will pick it up on some other venue.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline CptTrips

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Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #48 on: October 05, 2023, 08:18:46 AM »
I'm not here to convince anyone that one is better than the others. I haven't flown either Aces High or IL2 in over 3 weeks, DCS even longer. I am at that point in my life that I have seen others, where they have too much going on in life with real life and family. I now know why others take these breaks or step away, I never really understood that until I had a child.


Well, when they hit 13 they won't want to have anything to do with you and you can get back into sim'ing. ;)

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I like Aces High special events because of the community and camaraderie, it is where it's at. But that will change as it's not going to last forever, or even much longer, (sorry) and someone else will pick it up on some other venue.

I agree.  I know it is heresy... I like historical scenarios, but I have absolutely no problem with what-if scenarios either.  I think being open to both frees the creativity of your designer and give you a much larger canvas.  I think a position that a scenario can ONLY be a historical scenario is unnecessarily limiting and maybe a bit of an extremist view.  If you don't shackle yourself to only historical scenarios then others sims have no limits.  Do historical for what they support and make interesting what-if scenarios to fill the rest.

Like I said, I appreciate historical scenarios, but to me, IMHO, what I personally found compelling about scenarios is a organized, structured contest, with some semblance of command and clear measurable common goals for teams to compete for.  A beginning, a middle, and an end.  A complete storyline.  It's sense of purpose and teamwork as opposed to wandering the  Melee aimlessly picking your nose diddling something here or there and logging out before you ever see the end result because some Euro guys reset the map a 3am.

So for what I like that can be historical or not as long as I get that teamwork, structure, clearly defined goal where success is clearly defined and measured.  One way or another there is a start and a end and you will know who is the winner and who is the loser.  All the sims could put on scenarios like that.

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It's too restricted in what you can set up.
Is it more restricted than when Air Warrior started scenarios?


« Last Edit: October 05, 2023, 08:33:04 AM by CptTrips »
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Offline Dadtallica

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Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #49 on: October 05, 2023, 08:33:48 AM »

Well, when they hit 13 they won't want to have anything to do with you and you can get back into sim'ing. ;)

Can confirm.
Back in 2022 after a loooooong break from 2010. Old name Ratpack, same for the BBS.

Squad I did the most tours with were the Excaliburs then The 172nd Rabid Dogs. Still trying to talk Illigaf, Coola, Oldman22, and Joecrow into coming back instead of being boring old farts!

Offline Nefarious

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Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #50 on: October 05, 2023, 08:50:59 AM »
Well, when they hit 13 they won't want to have anything to do with you and you can get back into sim'ing. ;)

Woohoo! Only 6 more years to go! Although I am trying to spread the spark of aviation her Dad and Grandfather has!

There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline CptTrips

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Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #51 on: October 05, 2023, 08:55:02 AM »
Woohoo! Only 6 more years to go! Although I am trying to spread the spark of aviation her Dad and Grandfather has!

(Image removed from quote.)


That girl looks too intelligent to be limited to fixed-wing.  That looks like a helo-pilot waiting to self-actualize.

"Did you start the logs?"   :rofl

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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #52 on: October 05, 2023, 09:50:05 AM »
but in the end scenarios don't come with Aces High without people like you and Spikes.

In start-ups they call that an "Elevator Asset".  Usual meaning is key personnel that form the major component of a company's valuation.

When evaluating the purchase of a start-up, what percentage of the targets estimated value is made up of "Elevator Assets" that can, at any time, walk out the door, get in the elevator and leave the building, taking the company's value with them; and what would have to be done to secure them?

Like when Hitech left Warbirds. Whatever real value the company had walked out with him.  It just took Wild Bill a little time to realize that.  :rofl

( Side not:  Is WB completely dead now?  Their forums have been down for weeks at least. )



« Last Edit: October 05, 2023, 10:03:42 AM by CptTrips »
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Offline CptTrips

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Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #53 on: October 05, 2023, 01:28:54 PM »
In start-ups they call that an "Elevator Asset".  Usual meaning is key personnel that form the major component of a company's valuation.

When evaluating the purchase of a start-up, what percentage of the targets estimated value is made up of "Elevator Assets" that can, at any time, walk out the door, get in the elevator and leave the building, taking the company's value with them; and what would have to be done to secure them?

Like when Hitech left Warbirds. Whatever real value the company had walked out with him.  It just took Wild Bill a little time to realize that.  :rofl

( Side note:  Is WB completely dead now?  Their forums have been down for weeks at least. )
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #54 on: October 05, 2023, 01:33:15 PM »
Well, when they hit 13 they won't want to have anything to do with you and you can get back into sim'ing. ;)

I've got my two 13 year old daughters flying in scenarios.  :aok

Offline Brooke

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Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #55 on: October 05, 2023, 01:34:41 PM »
Woohoo!

That is awesome!  What a sweetie!  :aok

Offline CptTrips

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Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #56 on: October 05, 2023, 01:35:44 PM »
I've got my two 13 year old daughters flying in scenarios.  :aok

 :aok
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Offline Brooke

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Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #57 on: October 05, 2023, 02:28:25 PM »
I agree.  I know it is heresy... I like historical scenarios, but I have absolutely no problem with what-if scenarios either.

There are some folks who don't like them.  But I enjoy occasional "what if's" like Rangoon, Fjord Fury, The Final Battle, and Operation Downfall.  There are also some that are historical battles, but significantly enhanced plane set to make it playable, like Rabaul, PP, and Leyte.  Sort of a what if Japan had more of their later planes and not almost all Zeros.  Some of those (Fjord Fury, Rabaul, Leyte) are among my favorite scenarios of all time.

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Is it more restricted than when Air Warrior started scenarios?

It is similar in scenario tools to 30 years ago in Air Warrior, but still more restricted in plane set and ships.  Similar in that 30 years ago we didn't have lots of terrains and made due (as Nefarious talked about) back then.  We did have scoring logs.  We had a larger plane set, so could set up whatever matchups we wanted.  We had land and sea targets.

Air Warrior rapidly added more and more tools for scenarios.  I don't think scenarios occur to the Il-2 company.  I don't think they think about that at all.  And even if they did, some of the things that are highly useful in scenarios go contrary to their current business model (like restricted plane set that you pay money to expand).  Or having to put resources into things not needed for their main business model, such as releasing an editor for players to create terrains, or implementing user-modifiable settings for radar, visibility, ack power, target hardness, fleet location, air spawns, etc.

Could they do it?  Sure.  Will they?  Because they haven't done it already, I don't think it would be forthcoming.

Offline Brooke

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Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #58 on: October 05, 2023, 02:39:54 PM »
IL2

They do have a couple of groups that run historical events.  Nefarious, have you played in any of them?  I would love to know what they are like.

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with some fudging of the terrains

I do think that would work OK, as you say.

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In my opinion, Scenarios that are set in the Mediterranean and Pacific are a complete no-go for IL2

I wouldn't be surprised to see them put out at some point a release with that area as a focus.

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I would argue that IL2 isn't far behind

I see some barriers, though.  A big one for me is plane set being very restricted compared to what AH has to work with.  Also, possibly significant lack of settings to make things in the battle work best for playability or balance (ack, hardness, visibility, air spawn, radar settings, etc.).

When you fly bombers in Il-2, is it singletons, or do you get a couple drones like AH?

Also, in Il-2, do they have icons, or is it forced to be like AH with icons turned off?

Offline Nefarious

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Re: Combat Pilot
« Reply #59 on: October 06, 2023, 05:40:40 AM »
They do have a couple of groups that run historical events.  Nefarious, have you played in any of them?  I would love to know what they are like.

I have not.

I wouldn't be surprised to see them put out at some point a release with that area as a focus.

I believe it has been confirmed that IL2GB will not be expanding into the Pacific, but I might guess that Italian terrains or other terrains aren't out of the realm of possibility.

I see some barriers, though.  A big one for me is plane set being very restricted compared to what AH has to work with.  Also, possibly significant lack of settings to make things in the battle work best for playability or balance (ack, hardness, visibility, air spawn, radar settings, etc.).

While it's missing a swath of aircraft from theaters that aren't represented to begin with, it makes up for those in Aircraft that Aces High doesn't have. For example, our (AH) stable of Eastern Front aircraft is missing key components from the early part of the GPW. We have an I-16 and the next available aircraft is the Yak-7B. IL-2 has a lot of those key aircraft that we do not. Of course, their main focus in two of their releases is early war Eastern Front. So they have the MiG and Lagg series that we lack, along with the Pe-2.

I have never looked at their server settings, so I am unaware of hardness and ack settings, and not really sure how their visibility settings work, but their weather system includes a multitude of meteorological conditions that we lack. Some servers utilize air spawns so they do exist and radar settings seem to vary amongst the top populated servers, so they have the ability to manipulated too.

When you fly bombers in Il-2, is it singletons, or do you get a couple drones like AH?

Singletons.

Also, in Il-2, do they have icons, or is it forced to be like AH with icons turned off?

Yes, they have several different icon settings. One of my key gripes about IL2 is that the two most populated servers use no icons. This overall isn't terrible, but nothing is worse than getting smoked by a friendly. It has it's moments, but overall I prefer icons.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!