451st BG

[Banshee7]

I am posting this here because I know you skinners and lyric1 can probably help me out the most.

I am in search of any resources you might have about the 451st BG.  I have googled and found a few things, but I know y'all might have access or know about wayyyy more stuff.

The reasoning is my hometown was a bomber training base during the war.  My whole life I was taught that it was strictly a B-17 training base where crews learned how to fly in box formations.  Turns out, the only operational unit to come to the base and train as a unit was the 451st in B-24s.  Therefore, I would love to learn more about them.  I am going to continue my search, but if you know of any places I should try looking, please recommend them.

Oh, and if any of you find an interesting Liberator to skin, I would definitely fly it

Thank y'all so much!

Edit:  A lot of my information has been coming from this site.  I sometimes question sites like this, but so far it looks legit.  https://www.451st.org/default.html

[oboe]

The site looks legit to me, Banshee.   So cool isn't it, when you find a local connection to WWII air war history. 

[Banshee7]

The site looks legit to me, Banshee.   So cool isn't it, when you find a local connection to WWII air war history.

I blame the base and annual air shows for my love of WW2 aviation.  I have grown up loving B17s only to find out that I can also love B24s  . One of these days I will be the curator of the museum we have on the base.  What's really sad is the lack of funding the town gives the museum.

[lyric1]

Several photos in this link.

https://www.americanairmuseum.com/archive/unit/451st-bomb-group

[Greebo]

Looking through the above links and some other sources the best bet for a 451st BG skin seems to be a 724th BS aircraft named "Minnesota Mauler". This has half a dozen photos showing both sides of the complete aircraft as well as a close up of the LH side nose art, the RH side art being the same thing as the LH side. Also its a fairly colourful scheme; NMF with yellow tail codes and nose art writing, white squadron numbers on black squares and white cowl rims. I'll make a start on it once I have finished my current skin.

[oboe]

Being a Minnesota boy, I was curious about this one Greebo - but didn't find any profiles with yellow trim - just red:





I also found some confusing/contradicting info in an operations order from the 451st BG itself, for a mission on 1 Jul 44:

https://www.451st.org/Missions/Mission%20Flimsies/July%201944/44%20Jul%20Flimsies.pdf

This document lists SQUADRON COLORS as follows:

724th - White. 725th - Red. 726th - Green.  727th - Yellow

The colors in this order may not refer to aircraft trim color, however - could be a reference to flare color for starting the take off roll, or something else altogether?

Also found this reference, where the color of the painted name definitely suggests something lighter than red:



http://www.b24bestweb.com/minnesotamauler4.htm

Lastly, I found this squadron color reference, which DOES list the 724th's squad color as Yellow (scroll way down):

https://www.worldwarphotos.info/usaaf-codes/

[Greebo]

I have seen the red tail markings on another profile too but I don't think it is correct. Artists often copy other artists when doing their research so it is not unusual to find several profiles/paintings/decal sheets etc all with the same error. Apart from also seeing it in that squadron reference my reasons for thinking the colour is yellow are as follows:-

Photo 1 linked below shows the nose art painted in a shade that is lighter than the red-painted extinguisher hatch below it. in photo 2 the nose art colour appears to be the same shade as the tail colour. While you could make a case for yellow or red as the colour in photo 2 it definitely is not white, the cowl rims probably are though. I think Photo 3 shows the tail art is too light a shade to be red.

Photo 1
Photo 2
Photo 3

[Banshee7]

Looking through the above links and some other sources the best bet for a 451st BG skin seems to be a 724th BS aircraft named "Minnesota Mauler". This has half a dozen photos showing both sides of the complete aircraft as well as a close up of the LH side nose art, the RH side art being the same thing as the LH side. Also its a fairly colourful scheme; NMF with yellow tail codes and nose art writing, white squadron numbers on black squares and white cowl rims. I'll make a start on it once I have finished my current skin.

That would be awesome, Greebo! I look forward to seeing it!

I've been reading a little more, and it appears that only the ground echelon of the group spent much time here.  I have reached out to them requesting more information mainly out of curiosity.  I will always love B-17s, as it was the primary plane stationed here, but this has really sparked my interest and prompted me to research!

[oboe]

I have seen the red tail markings on another profile too but I don't think it is correct. Artists often copy other artists when doing their research so it is not unusual to find several profiles/paintings/decal sheets etc all with the same error. Apart from also seeing it in that squadron reference my reasons for thinking the colour is yellow are as follows:-

Photo 1 linked below shows the nose art painted in a shade that is lighter than the red-painted extinguisher hatch below it. in photo 2 the nose art colour appears to be the same shade as the tail colour. While you could make a case for yellow or red as the colour in photo 2 it definitely is not white, the cowl rims probably are though. I think Photo 3 shows the tail art is too light a shade to be red.

Photo 1
Photo 2
Photo 3

I agree with your conclusions, Greebo.  While initial research results returned color images with red trim, it doesn't hold up under further scrutiny.  I guess research isn't always a strength for many artists...

[lyric1]

[Greebo]

Thanks for the photos Lyric1, from what they show I may have to have a rethink on my interpretation of Minnesota Mauler. The last photo shows that the cowl rims and the number or number square colours were used as squadron identifiers. So if the cowl rims and numbers are yellow (or white) on Mauler, then presumably the darker shaded tail and nose art were indeed red as per the profiles etc. This would mean that all 451st BG NMF aircraft had red tails and that the very pale appearance of the tail colour on some black and white photos was down to fading, some sort of artefact of the film used, or a trick of the light. This doesn't seem likely to me though, some aircraft have tail colours that are much lighter than the NMF.

Unfortunately both the colour photos show aircraft 59 and 61 which not only had red tails but red number surrounds and cowl rims. What is needed is a photo that clearly shows a red tail with different colour cowl rims and numbers. The third aircraft in line on the last photo shows the number 62 on the nose in a green square and with green cowl rims, so it seems that by this time the number used did not denote the squadron.

All in all, it is a bit confusing.

[Vraciu]

Horse's Itch has red and yellow checkers that turned white on film.

[oboe]

Very interesting.   Awesome finds, Lyric!   In the first photo posted by Lyric, the nose art "Minnesota Mauler" looks to have a faint, light outline inside the dark outline.   It's possible the text could be dark red on yellow, outlined in black.   

[lyric1]

Thanks for the photos Lyric1, from what they show I may have to have a rethink on my interpretation of Minnesota Mauler. The last photo shows that the cowl rims and the number or number square colours were used as squadron identifiers. So if the cowl rims and numbers are yellow (or white) on Mauler, then presumably the darker shaded tail and nose art were indeed red as per the profiles etc. This would mean that all 451st BG NMF aircraft had red tails and that the very pale appearance of the tail colour on some black and white photos was down to fading, some sort of artefact of the film used, or a trick of the light. This doesn't seem likely to me though, some aircraft have tail colours that are much lighter than the NMF.

Unfortunately both the colour photos show aircraft 59 and 61 which not only had red tails but red number surrounds and cowl rims. What is needed is a photo that clearly shows a red tail with different colour cowl rims and numbers. The third aircraft in line on the last photo shows the number 62 on the nose in a green square and with green cowl rims, so it seems that by this time the number used did not denote the squadron.

All in all, it is a bit confusing.

Number 59 its a red panel on the front number if you zoom it up bigger the back number is a green surround panel. That makes it even more confusing maybe a book on this group maybe in order. I will see whats out there.

Edit. Red right side both panels.



Left red front green rear. 

[Greebo]

Looking at various photos I am pretty sure now the squadron colours were as per Oboe's document; 724th - White, 725th - Red, 726th - Green,  727th - Yellow. So Mauler had white cowl rims and white numbers on black squares.

The question now is what colour were the tail markings given that some photos show it in a light shade and some a mid shade? I am wondering if at first all the group tail codes were painted white to provide a contrast with olive drab paint and then once most of their planes were NMF the group changed to a red tail code to contrast with the metal. That might explain while in some photos the tail codes look dark and on others they look light on NMF aircraft.

That is weird on 59 Lyric1, perhaps they ran out of red paint?

Nice spot on the light line on the nose art text Oboe. Not sure is the skin resolution will support it for the skin though.