Author Topic: 451st BG  (Read 2155 times)

Offline lyric1

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Re: 451st BG
« Reply #15 on: October 14, 2023, 10:26:43 AM »
From the 451st site.

The nose art text clearly started out as a lighter colour and was changed at some point.

https://www.451st.org/Aircraft/images/Dave%20Evans/451_BG_42-50906.pdf

This image is the only one I have found so far showing the nose art on the opposite side as well.

http://www.b24bestweb.com/minnesotamauler5.htm




Offline Vraciu

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Re: 451st BG
« Reply #18 on: October 15, 2023, 09:10:31 AM »
Talk about dedication!

You have no idea...
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Offline JimmyD3

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Re: 451st BG
« Reply #19 on: October 15, 2023, 12:46:25 PM »
Lyric is in a league all his own.

 :salute Lyric1
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Offline Greebo

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Re: 451st BG
« Reply #20 on: October 16, 2023, 02:09:36 AM »
Lyric1 is an fantastic researcher and a real asset to this community. While some of us skinners have good knowledge of a few specific aircraft he is able to dig up obscure stuff on aircraft and vehicles from every participating nation.

Offline Greebo

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Re: 451st BG
« Reply #21 on: October 17, 2023, 04:38:46 AM »
I've started work on "Minnesota Mauler" so have been studying the available photos more closely and have come to some conclusions about the scheme:-

I suspect that both the nose art close up photos were taken at around the same time during the process of it being painted as neither of them show the large number 19 and all the group's NMF aircraft had these. The upper in-flight photo shows a similar mission tally to the lower nose art photo so it seems the large "19"s were painted on immediately after the second nose art photo was taken. These photos also show the lower nose below and behind the turret was painted white.

The second two in-flight photos were probably taken at a later date to the first one, as the stencil lines in the "19"s have been painted out. I'll skin it as per the upper photo though, as the mission tally is known.

I think Vraciu's suggestion about the red being over-exposed in the lower in-flight photo is likely correct. Looking carefully at this photo it is possible to see a reversal of the tone of tail markings between the in-shadow area just aft of the hinge line and the rest of the stab which is in sunlight. So in the shaded area the painted bits are darker than the NMF while in the lit areas this is reversed. Also the exhaust dirt on the top of the wings appears light in this photo while it is dark on the upper photo. Oil stains generally have a reddish tint so the same issue might be at play here. A less-likely alternative is lead in the fuel staining those areas white. So probably the tail codes were indeed red on 451st BG aircraft at this stage of the war.

I can't see any letter "J" on the rudders in these photos. While most photos of similar aircraft show a letter here there are a few that don't so I will leave these off.

I have a reference that shows the upper tail of 451st BG aircraft also carried tail codes, with the RH tail painted over and with a red circle on the LH tail. None of the B&W photos of NMF aircraft show these codes, but this may be down to the same issue of over-exposure of red hiding it. There is one photo of an OD aircraft called "Burma Bound" that shows these codes painted in white. The colour photo of aircraft "61" shows a red upper tail plane, but oddly this is the LH one and not the right. Hopefully Lyric1's new book will shed some more light on the tail codes of the group.




« Last Edit: October 17, 2023, 04:46:33 AM by Greebo »

Offline Banshee7

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Re: 451st BG
« Reply #22 on: October 17, 2023, 11:48:13 AM »
Looking forward to seeing it, Greebo!  Thank you so much for your work!  I have enjoyed reading what y'all analyze these photos!
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Offline lyric1

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Re: 451st BG
« Reply #23 on: October 18, 2023, 01:28:53 AM »

That is weird on 59 Lyric1, perhaps they ran out of red paint? :)



I think they did on #56 based off this image.
No tail markings at all?



https://www.worldwarphotos.info/gallery/usa/aircrafts-2-3/b24/b-24j-42-78595/
« Last Edit: October 18, 2023, 01:52:52 AM by lyric1 »

Offline lyric1

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Re: 451st BG
« Reply #24 on: October 18, 2023, 01:51:18 AM »
Thanks for the kind words guys.

Book arrived tons of photos as well as group markings firstly the plane in question some images we don't have.









This aircraft is a later replacement with the #19 as well. The #21 text I think was a typo in the book. The image I think shows the red painted horizontal upper tail surfaces best of any of the photos I have seen.





This plane is about the only one that jumped out to me in the book plus found some Facebook images of it as a possible alternative to #19.

"The Bad Penny"
        #49
Lots of photos in the SCRIBD link for the 451st.

https://www.scribd.com/document/672188173/Schiffer-Military-History-B-24-Liberators-of-the-15th-Air-Force-49th-Bomb-Wing-in-WWII

http://hey_moe.tripod.com/page5.html














Group markings.

300 B-24's served with the group.  :aok









« Last Edit: October 18, 2023, 01:56:23 AM by lyric1 »

Offline Vraciu

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Re: 451st BG
« Reply #25 on: October 18, 2023, 02:24:38 AM »
It's not exactly overexposure.   Certain types of film used during WW2 depicted some dark colors like red as white.   There is a site explaining this but I'm unable to find it.   I hope I have a screenshot of it at home.  Panchromatic film is the culprit of I recall.  Merle Olmstead was a crew chief with the 357th and their group historian.  He explained why this color shift occurs.

Here are two examples of a red and yellow checker nose coming out almost the exact same color as the white markings on the same aircraft.






Some depictions of the lower photo show less of a contrast than this one.    I've zoomed and cropped it.

I'm also starting to believe that the nose art lettering on this Mustang is YELLOW not white based on this second image.


« Last Edit: October 18, 2023, 02:46:26 AM by Vraciu »
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Offline Vraciu

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Re: 451st BG
« Reply #26 on: October 18, 2023, 02:32:32 AM »
Here's another cropped image.  These nose are the red and yellow of the 357th FG.

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Offline Greebo

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Re: 451st BG
« Reply #27 on: October 18, 2023, 03:24:45 AM »
Thanks for making me aware of this Vraciu, I'll keep an eye out for the issue in future. I was aware that orthochromatic film caused red-shifted colours to appear too dark but not that panchromatic film made them appear too light. In all the 451st BG photos I can now see that where the red is brightly lit it appears lighter than the NMF but where it is in shadow it appears darker, but still too light.

The unit markings info from the book Lyric1 kindly bought clears up pretty much all the remaining questions I had on the scheme. The only thing I would take issue with is where it says the LH horizontal stab was red and the circle was on the RH stab. The photo I have of "Burma Bound" taken close up from above shows it was the other way round so I will go with that for the skin. I could skin the post-September scheme with the whole stab in red as one of the new photos from the book does show Mauler painted this way, but I think I'll stick with the earlier version.

Offline Banshee7

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Re: 451st BG
« Reply #28 on: October 18, 2023, 11:23:28 AM »

(Image removed from quote.)


Originally, I was going to suggest skinning Bad Penny...for obvious reasons of course  :devil
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Offline oboe

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Re: 451st BG
« Reply #29 on: October 18, 2023, 12:08:03 PM »
Originally, I was going to suggest skinning Bad Penny...for obvious reasons of course  :devil

I don't that'd be a hard sell for Greebo... ;)