Author Topic: Flaps/Gear/engine toggling and other "fidgety" penalty....  (Read 2237 times)

Offline fd ski

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Flaps/Gear/engine toggling and other "fidgety" penalty....
« on: October 26, 2023, 02:34:58 AM »
HT,

https://youtu.be/s3KvE2a64TQ?t=2718

Looks like meta in the game now is to drop full flaps, turn off the engine and drop gear, to slow down rapidly in reversals. Then restart the engine, pull up gear and flaps, all in span of 2-3 seconds. All while remaining in control at speeds of 50mph and nose up angle in 190Dora...

I might be old fashioned but there is something disconcerting about this mechanic in a good flight sim. Aside from time it would take to "restart" the engine in such situation, time to drop and pull up flaps was often very long and required some "pumping" in some planes. Drag penalty feels rather small and departure in those situation very soft. If you watch whole video, there is fully controlled shooting at 60mph speeds. Rudder control and all that.

Not sure if you're tinkering with this area of the sim anymore, but if you could take a look, it would be nice. I haven't reviewed any of the WWII memoirs, but I'm 99% sure that i never heard of anyone dropping gear and switching off the engine to improve turn rate

Maybe a reasonable fix would be to increase the time for engine to "spin down" and "spin up" to 10 seconds, and gear once dropped should have to deploy all the way down ( couldn't be pulled up while going down) and stay down for at least 3 seconds before going up? I'm pretty sure that would discourage some of the most egregious abuses without much effect on overall sim.

Thanks


Offline GasTeddy

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Re: Flaps/Gear/engine toggling and other "fidgety" penalty....
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2023, 03:33:41 AM »
IAS 49 mph...    :O    I fly (and die in) 190D relatively often and spin out of control in much higher speeds.

What comes to WW2 pilot memories, I have several shelf meters of those, especially Luftwaffe ones. Using flaps and throttling down to turn tighter were normal in dogfight, but never full flaps. Dropping gear in desperate situation to make con at six to overshoot I've read couple of times, shutting engine off never. Restarting in a heat of a battle might be interesting IRL.

Gear down to turn tighter sounds more than weird, as with my understanding of aerodynamics it does not increase lift. So, fully agree with your fix proposals.

Offline LCADolby

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Re: Flaps/Gear/engine toggling and other "fidgety" penalty....
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2023, 03:43:26 AM »
That film you're linking I believe is from early 2018, but reversals and avoiding overshooting have always been a key to surviving an air battle.

The engine off is gamey but doesn't work as you think it does, it's essentially a short cut to going zero throttle, saving a fraction of a second, but the initial torque twist of the engine turning on is probably too forgiving in AH.

Controlled shooting at those slow speeds is proof that the pilot is well versed in his aircraft's control envelope. The 190D has an incredible roll rate to overcome the left wing stalling for a time to get shots.
I don't think pilot skill can be pushed as an exploit.

With regard to the gear dropping, I can understand your concerns with aircraft where the gear is hand cranked, such as the 109 etc. In combat the practice produces negligible results in speed loss and the affect on the aircraft's ability to accelerate as the gear returns to full up should the move fail in some cases will cost the fight. Calculated risk vs reward and it'll snap off over 150mph for most aircraft anyway, leave permanent drag.

I believe F4U pilots used the gear as an airbrake of sorts?

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Offline fd ski

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Re: Flaps/Gear/engine toggling and other "fidgety" penalty....
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2023, 04:53:12 AM »
Dolby, I'm not an aeronautical engineer by any stretch, but 190 hanging on the prop at 50mph would have a minimal airflow over surfaces to allow it to maneuver at all.
 
>The engine off is gamey but doesn't work as you think it does, it's essentially a short cut to going zero throttle, saving a fraction of a second, but the initial torque twist of the engine turning on is probably too forgiving in AH.

well, we're in a sim, not a game. At least that's what i'd like to think ;)
And yes, throttle is way too forgiving. Lots of films with people flying K4, whipping it around at low speed, powering up and down like that 2000hp is nothing...

>Controlled shooting at those slow speeds is proof that the pilot is well versed in his aircraft's control envelope. The 190D has an incredible roll rate to overcome the left wing stalling for a time to get shots.
I don't think pilot skill can be pushed as an exploit.

I'm not dissing his skills. I'm just saying that envelope is way too forgiving and silly/gamey mechanics listed, make it so.
 


Offline popeye

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Re: Flaps/Gear/engine toggling and other "fidgety" penalty....
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2023, 06:27:30 AM »
Not sure of the aerodynamic effect, but the functional effect of gear is instantaneous -- you can land and roll the instant "gear down" is pressed, on gear that is still in the wheel wells.  If the aerodynamic effect is of gear fully deployed the instant "gear down" is pressed, a delayed or gradual effect might make gear less useful in combat.
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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: Flaps/Gear/engine toggling and other "fidgety" penalty....
« Reply #5 on: October 26, 2023, 08:42:27 AM »
While certain aspects to aces high are "gamey" they aren't going to help in the fight. Getting gear out will instantly kill their E, and if you go up and over emmilman as they are coming around, they won't be able to have the E to follow and you should be able to rope them, but you may have to jink to avoid the first shot. Engine cutting and all that doesn't work. You are better off keeping it on so you can save the little bit of E. Also, your best bet is normally to cut throttle and try to get a notch of flaps out first if you think you will overshoot, but are clear in the 1v1 this will help you get quick lift to turn back in.

Check out my 1v1 here to understand how to beat E type players in the duel. I never took off combat trim, never turned off engine, or put gear out.

« Last Edit: October 26, 2023, 08:49:23 AM by DmonSlyr »
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Offline Oldman731

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Re: Flaps/Gear/engine toggling and other "fidgety" penalty....
« Reply #6 on: October 26, 2023, 08:46:53 AM »
I believe F4U pilots used the gear as an airbrake of sorts?

From JG 26 - Top Guns of the Luftwaffe, by Donald L. Caldwell (Ivy Books, New York 1991), ISBN 0-8041-1050-6 (First Ballentine Edition, June 1993), at page 276:

[The following occurred on the afternoon of September 17, 1944 - the first day of Operation Market-Garden]:

The Third Gruppe [of JG26] also fought a battle with Mustangs, with ruinous consequences for itself.  In mid-afternoon, Major Mietusch assembled about fifteen Bf 109s of his scattered command and headed for the landing zones, climbing all the way.  The weather had taken a turn for the worse, and there was a continuous layer of thin cloud at 15,000 feet.  The Germans climbed through it, and then, while above the Dutch-German border, Mietusch spotted a squadron of P-51s below them.  He radioed, “Otter Mietusch, I am attacking!” and dove through the cloud.  His first burst of fire destroyed the Number 4 plane of the trailing cover flight.  Oblt. Schild hit the Number 2 Mustang’s drop tank, and it dove away trailing a solid sheet of flame.  The events of the next few minutes are best stated in the words of the leader of that P-51 flight, Lt. William Beyer of the 361st Fighter Group’s 376th Squadron:

*          *          *

I was the flight leader at the tail end of the squadron.  We had flown back and forth between checkpoints for a couple of hours.  My wingmen apparently got tired of looking around for enemy aircraft.  Only by the grace of God did I happen to look behind us at that particular moment, because in no more than a couple of seconds the enemy would have shot the whole flight down.

I saw about fifteen German fighters closing fast with all their guns firing.  I immediately broke 180 degrees and called out the enemy attack.  My Number 4 man went down in flames, and my wingman got hit and spun out.  I headed straight back into the German fighters and went through the whole group, just about in the center of them.  We were separated by only a few feet...

I immediately made another 180-degree turn, picked out one of them, and started to chase it.  The rest of the fighters zoomed back up into the clouds and disappeared.  We made many violent high-G maneuvers with wide open throttle.  When I started to close and fire, I noticed that his plane seemed to have stopped in the air.  I had to decide whether to shoot and run, or to try to stop my plane.  I cut throttle, lowered flaps, and dropped my wheels - I still kept closing.  I had to fishtail and do flat weaves to stay behind him.  This maneuver was repeated three times, and on one occasion I almost cut his tail off, we were so close...

Then we started into steep dives.  The last one was at around 1,000 feet with flaps down.  This last maneuver was deadly and nerve-racking.  He went straight down toward the ground, hoping I couldn’t pull out.  If I pulled out early, he could have come in behind me, so I stayed with him.  If we had had our wheels down when we pulled out, we would have been on the ground.

 
It was after this pullout that I finally was able to get my sights lined up and fire at him.  I must have hit him with the first burst, because he kept turning and went into the ground and broke up.  Knowing the caliber of this German pilot, I am sure that if I had taken the time to get off some shots when he was slowing down he could have possibly shot me down or made a getaway.  My other combat victories were not nearly as spectacular as this one, and it is with this in mind that I can recall it so vividly.

*          *          *

Lt Beyer’s victim was Klaus Mietusch.  Mietusch was one of the most fascinating individuals in the Geschwader’s history.  He was a career officer, had joined the Geschwader in 1938, and was its senior pilot in length of service when he died at age twenty-five.  His early combat career was marked by a seemingly endless series of failures and frustrations.  A member of the successful 7th Staffel under Muencheberg, he did not come into his own until he succeeded to the command and led it on detached assignment in Russia in 1943.  He was the opposite of the typical extroverted, self-confident fighter pilot.  He compensated for what he believed to be his lack of ability by an act of will.  According to Priller, Mietusch’s combat motto was, “Bore in, until the enemy is as large as a barn door in your sights.”  Again quoting Priller, duty as Mietusch’s wingman was an “unforgettable experience.”  Mietusch was shot down ten times and was wounded at least four times.  He was said never to have turned down a mission, and he had logged an incredible 452 combat sorties at the time of his death.  His seventy-two victories brought the award of the Oak Leaves to his Knights’s Cross, two months after his death.

Offline Dadtallica

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Re: Flaps/Gear/engine toggling and other "fidgety" penalty....
« Reply #7 on: October 26, 2023, 08:52:48 AM »
That was a good read!
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Offline LCADolby

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Re: Flaps/Gear/engine toggling and other "fidgety" penalty....
« Reply #8 on: October 26, 2023, 09:07:36 AM »
SNIP

 He compensated for what he believed to be his lack of ability by an act of will.

A great read there Oldman, I couldn't help but be drawn to this quote.  :salute
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Offline GasTeddy

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Re: Flaps/Gear/engine toggling and other "fidgety" penalty....
« Reply #9 on: October 26, 2023, 12:02:12 PM »

Check out my 1v1 here to understand how to beat E type players in the duel. I never took off combat trim, never turned off engine, or put gear out.



For example 5:42 and 6:20 can clearly see Skyyr flying gear down.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2023, 12:04:02 PM by GasTeddy »

Offline LCADolby

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Re: Flaps/Gear/engine toggling and other "fidgety" penalty....
« Reply #10 on: October 26, 2023, 02:18:25 PM »
For example 5:42 and 6:20 can clearly see Skyyr flying gear down.

I had to go in and watch that;
Dropping gear certainly telegraphs your intentions loud and clear for the other guy to counter, as Vio showed in immediately going defensive to avoid guns.
I'm pretty sure the round 1 loss increased the pressure on the pilot, because it's not something I'd expect from a pilot that feels in control. It's ballsy but its do or die because if you miss your overshoot shot you're pretty exposed to being out E'd and out-positioned from that moment onwards as I believe played out here.

Duels are often won by the guy that makes the least mistakes or the smallest ones when the match up is so competitive.

A good fight to watch but painful not seeing a traditional dueller's deck merge, wtf Vio you freak  :P

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Offline DmonSlyr

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Re: Flaps/Gear/engine toggling and other "fidgety" penalty....
« Reply #11 on: October 26, 2023, 02:59:37 PM »
I had to go in and watch that;
Dropping gear certainly telegraphs your intentions loud and clear for the other guy to counter, as Vio showed in immediately going defensive to avoid guns.
I'm pretty sure the round 1 loss increased the pressure on the pilot, because it's not something I'd expect from a pilot that feels in control. It's ballsy but its do or die because if you miss your overshoot shot you're pretty exposed to being out E'd and out-positioned from that moment onwards as I believe played out here.

Duels are often won by the guy that makes the least mistakes or the smallest ones when the match up is so competitive.

A good fight to watch but painful not seeing a traditional dueller's deck merge, wtf Vio you freak  :P

I was honestly very suprised he dropped gear there as there was no reason, but it was certainly desperation. In these duels I was mostly disappointed with my aim. Fights should have been over much earlier but couldn't quite connect. Skyyr has crazy aim, so it would make me very nervous if he was about to get a shot attempt.
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Offline guncrasher

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Re: Flaps/Gear/engine toggling and other "fidgety" penalty....
« Reply #12 on: October 26, 2023, 03:06:59 PM »
coming in low to land, lower gear and you cant because the code was changed to not allow it.

oh that's right only during a fight, how would the code know? if you are coming hot to land while cons are all around you.


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Offline Vulcan

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Re: Flaps/Gear/engine toggling and other "fidgety" penalty....
« Reply #13 on: October 31, 2023, 08:35:43 PM »
I see people do this occasionally and I wonder what they think they are gaining. Kill your engine and your plane instantly goes out of trim, drop your gear and you just told me your E state is porked. I saw some newbie doing it in the weekend and wondered if it was he who cannot be named. He ate a 37mm anyway :D

Offline Busher

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Re: Flaps/Gear/engine toggling and other "fidgety" penalty....
« Reply #14 on: October 31, 2023, 10:31:27 PM »
Gotta love the control response at 50mph IAS in a WW2 fighter. It's a video game... not a flying game.
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