Author Topic: The Devil's Broomstick Scores  (Read 959 times)

Offline perdue3

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4680
The Devil's Broomstick Scores
« on: December 16, 2023, 06:57:40 AM »
This FSO had a unique scoring system in that it was a pass/fail system.

The Allies needed to destroy a total of 10 Hangars+Bunkers AND 50% of A142's Town in Frame 1.

The Allies needed to destroy 50 Buildings at the Ammo Factory at Magdeburg in Frame 2 and 50 Buildings at the AAA Factory at Kassel in Frame 3.


Frame 1: 36 Town Buildings Destroyed (less than 50%), 19 Hangars+Bunkers Destroyed. Axis Victory.

Frame 2: 40 Ammo Factory Buildings Destroyed. Axis Victory

Frame 3: 63 AAA Facotry Buildings Destroyed. Allied Victory



Thank you all for flying. I hope it was fun for all.  :salute
C.O. Kommando Nowotny 

FlyKommando.com

 

Offline RTGorkle

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 297
Re: The Devil's Broomstick Scores
« Reply #1 on: December 16, 2023, 07:22:18 AM »
I found this one particularly fun. Thank you to all the admins and commanders for delivering 2 hours of joy a few times a month.

Offline WxMan

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
      • Arabian Knights
Re: The Devil's Broomstick Scores
« Reply #2 on: December 16, 2023, 08:53:19 AM »
I thought it was one of the worst FSO's in quite a while.
AKWxMan
Arabian Knights

"The money you payed earns you nothing. You paid for many hours of entertainment you received, and nothing more." - HiTech

Offline perdue3

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4680
Re: The Devil's Broomstick Scores
« Reply #3 on: December 16, 2023, 12:28:44 PM »
I thought it was one of the worst FSO's in quite a while.

Thank you for your feedback. Could you please elaborate with specifics so that the admin team can sort out those issues in the future?

The numbers did not work out as designed, something that has been happening more frequently.
C.O. Kommando Nowotny 

FlyKommando.com

 

Offline Trav02

  • Zinc Member
  • *
  • Posts: 56
Re: The Devil's Broomstick Scores
« Reply #4 on: December 16, 2023, 12:49:18 PM »
I enjoyed it, thanks! Got me excited for the Feb. Scenario...

Offline MDStampf93

  • Aces High CM Staff (In Training)
  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 661
Re: The Devil's Broomstick Scores
« Reply #5 on: December 16, 2023, 01:31:29 PM »
Enjoyed this as well. A big thank you to the CMs and FSO teams who put these events together for us all year long. Looking forward to flying and dying with you all next year.

 :salute
MDStampf - CO of JG11 'Sonderstaffel'
USMC 2010-2021


Here since Tour 71

Offline Vulcan

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 9897
Re: The Devil's Broomstick Scores
« Reply #6 on: December 17, 2023, 01:24:14 AM »
Thank you for your feedback. Could you please elaborate with specifics so that the admin team can sort out those issues in the future?

The numbers did not work out as designed, something that has been happening more frequently.

As a long time FSO attendee I get the feeling the numbers are starting to put pressure on the feasibility of FSO. It's nothing to do with the CM team, just the nature of things.

Offline Nefarious

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15858
Re: The Devil's Broomstick Scores
« Reply #7 on: December 17, 2023, 08:34:50 AM »
The side splits should always favor the attackers in assault setups, with the number advantage being the total number of bombers up to or at least half of them.

So if you require 12, 16 or whatever bombers - the advantage for the attackers should be at the minimum 6-8 to 12-16 bombers (factoring in trios)

If you go into an assault setup close to 50/50 (or down 8-10 pilots like frames 2 and 3) - the defenders will have the advantage in total number of fighters, regardless if they are fighters or bomber destroyers. The bombers are the objective for the defenders, so the attackers should have just as many escorts as the defenders have interceptors.

The total number of fighters should be close to even or even as possible, another reason I was a proponent of using AI bombers in situations like these.
There must also be a flyable computer available for Nefarious to do FSO. So he doesn't keep talking about it for eight and a half hours on Friday night!

Offline WxMan

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 418
      • Arabian Knights
Re: The Devil's Broomstick Scores
« Reply #8 on: December 17, 2023, 11:55:35 AM »
The allied attendance did play a part in this. However, the design called for a 6% advantage for the allies (2 or 3 players). The reality was that during each frame the axis had anywhere from a 10% to 20% advantage over the allies, and over 16% to 26% past the design. This does not include the number of people required to be in bombers which was another 20% to 30% of the allied force. That gave the axis a fighter-to-fighter superiority of anywhere from 30% to 50%.  At no time did you compensate as other designers have done in the past.

Now add in the other semi realistic restrictions imposed on the allies with 50% cloud cover that during my experience often obscured the target, and an altitude boundary 18k to 22k for the bombers which made it easier for the defenders. This allowed for the axis strategy to simply orbit over target and pounce on the bombers with their vast numerical superiority and potent canon armed aircraft. The result was what turned out to be a turkey shoot for the axis each frame.

The defense was so devastating that the allies lost approximately 30 to 40% of their participants before the end of the first hour each frame. Making it even more difficult for those remaining to accomplish the stated goals. If you truly want to keep interest in FSO, having events unfold like this will not help. And while I've been on the losing side many times. I've never been frustrated enough to leave before the second hour of a multi-life frame before, but the third frame was finally enough to make me go.

Finally, I've never been a fan of a pass/fail scoring. I've favored an accumulation of points so that by the end of an event, you know exactly how much you've won or loss by. 

I commend you for your inspiration in designing the event and for providing our sandbox to play in this month, but I feel that you fell just a bit short.
AKWxMan
Arabian Knights

"The money you payed earns you nothing. You paid for many hours of entertainment you received, and nothing more." - HiTech

Offline Spikes

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15739
    • Twitch: Twitch Feed
Re: The Devil's Broomstick Scores
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2023, 10:32:25 AM »
The allied attendance did play a part in this. However, the design called for a 6% advantage for the allies (2 or 3 players). The reality was that during each frame the axis had anywhere from a 10% to 20% advantage over the allies, and over 16% to 26% past the design. This does not include the number of people required to be in bombers which was another 20% to 30% of the allied force. That gave the axis a fighter-to-fighter superiority of anywhere from 30% to 50%.  At no time did you compensate as other designers have done in the past.

While this was not my event, I have some thoughts...

The last time we had a high altitude bombing event was much earlier this year. The documented split called for 53/47, but in reality the Axis were down 22, 23, and 29 players each frame respectively. The Axis lost by 36 points (113-77), 21 points (92-71), and 49 points (96-47) respective to each frame for a total of 301 to 195 for the event. At no time did the designer compensate for the severe number disadvantage, despite it bring brought up privately even before the event that the side split numbers were very off from the design split. I looked but don't recall seeing you post about this event balance issue - but you flew Allied and probably didn't notice it, which is understandable.

In the above event, the points deficit alone was insurmountable probably after Frame 1. In December's event, the Allies were 10 buildings away from winning the event. A hollow victory - perhaps - but a victory nonetheless (for those who enjoy this aspect of the event). Assault style setups with strategic bombing are the toughest to balance out of any event type.

It happens. I am not usually a fan of moving squads, especially after Frame 1, since you never know if it was a fluke or not. You could move a squad, then Frame 2 is back to normal and the numbers are woefully imbalanced in the other direction. If the issue persists after two frames, I think it's warranted to move a squad in an attempt to salvage the event.

Fortunately, there is an Admin position for FSO open this year. If you have any interest in it please let me know - we would appreciate your help! :salute
« Last Edit: December 18, 2023, 10:48:33 AM by Spikes »
i7-12700k | Gigabyte Z690 GAMING X | 64GB G.Skill DDR4 | EVGA 1080ti FTW3 | H150i Capellix

FlyKommando.com

Offline perdue3

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4680
Re: The Devil's Broomstick Scores
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2023, 12:55:22 PM »
The side splits should always favor the attackers in assault setups, with the number advantage being the total number of bombers up to or at least half of them.

So if you require 12, 16 or whatever bombers - the advantage for the attackers should be at the minimum 6-8 to 12-16 bombers (factoring in trios)

If you go into an assault setup close to 50/50 (or down 8-10 pilots like frames 2 and 3) - the defenders will have the advantage in total number of fighters, regardless if they are fighters or bomber destroyers. The bombers are the objective for the defenders, so the attackers should have just as many escorts as the defenders have interceptors.

The total number of fighters should be close to even or even as possible, another reason I was a proponent of using AI bombers in situations like these.

A numbers advantage for the Allies was designed, it did not come to fruition. Perhaps moving a squad would have done the trick. Despite it all, the Allies lost by a handful of buildings. I realize that it may have felt much worse than it was on paper.

The issue is an average of 78 players. I settled for 51-53% advantage for Allies. Axis squads showed up on the higher edge of their commitment while Allies showed up on the lower. Just isn't much I can do about that. During the frame itself, I can send a squad over, but that has its own issues. I am sorry, I should have made it closer to 60/40 just to be safe. If it is imbalanced the other way, it's just as bad. Just such a fine margin when you have such low numbers.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2023, 01:03:04 PM by perdue3 »
C.O. Kommando Nowotny 

FlyKommando.com

 

Offline perdue3

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 4680
Re: The Devil's Broomstick Scores
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2023, 01:30:21 PM »
The allied attendance did play a part in this. However, the design called for a 6% advantage for the allies (2 or 3 players). The reality was that during each frame the axis had anywhere from a 10% to 20% advantage over the allies, and over 16% to 26% past the design. This does not include the number of people required to be in bombers which was another 20% to 30% of the allied force. That gave the axis a fighter-to-fighter superiority of anywhere from 30% to 50%.  At no time did you compensate as other designers have done in the past.

Now add in the other semi realistic restrictions imposed on the allies with 50% cloud cover that during my experience often obscured the target, and an altitude boundary 18k to 22k for the bombers which made it easier for the defenders. This allowed for the axis strategy to simply orbit over target and pounce on the bombers with their vast numerical superiority and potent canon armed aircraft. The result was what turned out to be a turkey shoot for the axis each frame.

The defense was so devastating that the allies lost approximately 30 to 40% of their participants before the end of the first hour each frame. Making it even more difficult for those remaining to accomplish the stated goals. If you truly want to keep interest in FSO, having events unfold like this will not help. And while I've been on the losing side many times. I've never been frustrated enough to leave before the second hour of a multi-life frame before, but the third frame was finally enough to make me go.

Finally, I've never been a fan of a pass/fail scoring. I've favored an accumulation of points so that by the end of an event, you know exactly how much you've won or loss by. 

I commend you for your inspiration in designing the event and for providing our sandbox to play in this month, but I feel that you fell just a bit short.

I agree that the numbers did not work out. I could have moved a squad in retrospect, had I known that the problem would only worsen. But how are we to know? In these cases, an Allied advantage is indeed better than an Axis one, but I've seen it play out the other way, too. Frankly, neither is fun nor reparable.

Regarding objectives, I'm not sure what the alternative is. It's 8th AF, so we want bombers at altitude, hence the alt window. We don't want max alt pre-45 so there's an alt cap. Clouds were a thing, I hate that they obscured the targets at times. The defenders' best strategy is indeed to sit at target and pounce once we found them. I'm not sure what else is expected.

People leaving prior to Hour 2 is something else that the admin can't control. I understand that some of it may have been out if frustration. Luckily, my setups aren't dependant on hour 2 and I don't like a lot of emphasis on hour 2 because it is so chaotic and ad hoc.

The scoring system is not preferable to you, I understand and appreciate that. In this case, I was fearful of numbers as well as kills being disproportionate because of the nature of the event. Bombers are here to bomb and escorts are not there to kill, they are there to escort. The only people with the mission to actually kill are the bomber attacking defenders. So, in my opinion, to score kills in a setup such as this only helps one side. Plus, 8th AF missions based success on a few factors, most important was target status. Therefore, this event focused on the target status after the frame to determine victory. I thought it was best for this event, maybe I was wrong. On that note, the Allies were 10 buildings from winning and about 35 buildings from winning all 3 frames.

Maybe I did fall short of a good design. I think moving a 3-5 squad would have been good. Had I known that the Allies wouldn't have turned up and the Axis would have, I would have put more squads on Allies. I always try to give an interesting flair to my events or something brand new. This time it was 163s. I am sorry you didn't enjoy the event and I will take your feedback into consideration for my next event.

Cheers.

« Last Edit: December 18, 2023, 01:43:58 PM by perdue3 »
C.O. Kommando Nowotny 

FlyKommando.com

 

Offline hazmatt

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1374
Re: The Devil's Broomstick Scores
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2023, 01:39:05 PM »
Didn't the event used to last 2 hours? Now there's 2 events?

I flew many FSOs back in the day and I must say you guys usually did a great job a managing it. I was surprised that things didn't get tilted more back in the day.

Offline Spikes

  • Aces High CM Staff
  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 15739
    • Twitch: Twitch Feed
Re: The Devil's Broomstick Scores
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2023, 02:17:33 PM »
Didn't the event used to last 2 hours? Now there's 2 events?

I flew many FSOs back in the day and I must say you guys usually did a great job a managing it. I was surprised that things didn't get tilted more back in the day.
FSOs in recent years have allowed for extra sorties in the second hour.
i7-12700k | Gigabyte Z690 GAMING X | 64GB G.Skill DDR4 | EVGA 1080ti FTW3 | H150i Capellix

FlyKommando.com