Author Topic: Dot Dar  (Read 3525 times)

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Dot Dar
« Reply #45 on: February 27, 2024, 02:28:29 PM »
A lot of the tools that were put in place (88s and m3 runs) were put in place to combat mass hordes that we donít really have anymore. They had their place but I donít think theyíre all that useful for game play these days.

Every time I hear an 88 popping off, I just get reminded that there is another player in an ever dwindling community that isnít participating in meaningful combat. While I can appreciate the skill it takes to get accurate with those things, theyíre little more than a distraction as I buzz around the virtual skies. I canít remember the last time I was actually hit by one but it wonít stop someone from sitting in one missing me for 15-20 minutes. Itís frustrating because, in my head, thatís a player that could be in a plane or a GV contributing to what I pay for which is player on player combat. Instead theyíre basically avoiding any risk and contributing nothing in the way of action.

I believe M3s resup had its place too. But itís now become the default in base defense. Why actually challenge aircraft or tanks when you can wipe out three or more players efforts to shut down a town with a single short drive (and why is driving faster than flying?). Again, itís especially frustrating for me when I realize thatís another player that I could be pitting my skills against who is no longer in combat.

Proximity dar has dumbed down the need to apply any kind of SA or thought. It makes it easier for pickers to find already ganged targets which used to require some sort of communication or extrapolation. Cockpit visibility as an attribute is negated because you donít even need to look outside to see the enemy. Just bring up the map and you know exactly where the enemy is and what it is (fighter/bomber). Clouds are pointless because you can, not only see aircraft on your map, but know exactly which direction theyíre flying. No need to investigate whether itís a fighter or bomber. No need to wonder if youíre putting yourself in jeopardy if you bounce someone. All right there on your map.

Well said. I'd love to see Hitech revert any or all of these settings. Like how hard can it be? Data sheets edits, or just a switch in the arena settings.

Offline Dadtallica

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Re: Dot Dar
« Reply #46 on: February 27, 2024, 03:41:46 PM »
Every time I hear an 88 popping off, I just get reminded that there is another player in an ever dwindling community that isnít participating in meaningful combat. While I can appreciate the skill it takes to get accurate with those things, theyíre little more than a distraction as I buzz around the virtual skies. I canít remember the last time I was actually hit by one but it wonít stop someone from sitting in one missing me for 15-20 minutes. Itís frustrating because, in my head, thatís a player that could be in a plane or a GV contributing to what I pay for which is player on player combat. Instead theyíre basically avoiding any risk and contributing nothing in the way of.

What you pay for? What about what the guy in the 88 pays for? Some people like ground guns and are good at them. I donít understand how they do it. Iíve been hit 15K out before. Some people have never stepped in a plane and only drive. Are they not contributing? You can go shoot the gun down if that person is bothering you. If they are good enough you will never get close enough to do it. How is preventing you from being closer to base is not contributing to their side? 

The unicorn beauty of AH is how subjective it is. Some, only fly, some only drive. This is not solely an A2A game.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2024, 03:44:42 PM by Dadtallica »
Back in 2022 after a loooooong break from 2010. Old name Ratpack, same for the BBS.

Squad I did the most tours with were the Excaliburs then The 172nd Rabid Dogs. Still trying to talk Illigaf, Coola, Oldman22, and Joecrow into coming back instead of being boring old farts!

Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Dot Dar
« Reply #47 on: February 27, 2024, 04:07:12 PM »
What you pay for? What about what the guy in the 88 pays for? Some people like ground guns and are good at them. I donít understand how they do it. Iíve been hit 15K out before. Some people have never stepped in a plane and only drive. Are they not contributing? You can go shoot the gun down if that person is bothering you. If they are good enough you will never get close enough to do it. How is preventing you from being closer to base is not contributing to their side? 

The unicorn beauty of AH is how subjective it is. Some, only fly, some only drive. This is not solely an A2A game.

The only driving he "complained" about was the running of M3s to resupply a town INSTEAD of fighting to defend that base in either a vehicle or a plane. The 88s are the same thing, sitting in a gun INSTEAD of fighting in a vehicle or plane to defend the base. I'm pretty sure NOBODY pays $15 a month to sit in a gun.

The point he is trying to make is far too many people jump to the easiest way to defend.....88s and resupply. For years we had guns on the fields we could use to defend the field. They didnt have the range the 88s have but they were there, and still are. We could resupply, but it took a goon to do it until they gave it to the M3s.

We have low numbers again like we did years ago before these "easy ways" were added. If 20% of the players jump into an 88 or M3 for supply runs that is a big chunk of the players in the arena no longer fighting.

Do you think if they removed the ability to resupply towns w/M3 or removed the 88s that any field could be deacked any less quickly, or a base capture would happen so much faster? I doubt it. 

Offline Dadtallica

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Re: Dot Dar
« Reply #48 on: February 27, 2024, 04:28:38 PM »
Are we sure flakyou isnít just a gunner lol? Him mostly but a couple others can pluck me out of the air from anywhere.

I canít imagine why anyone would be mad about a base or town being resupplied as a game function. There are in game ways to make resupping a moot point. Not many want to do that work. I like that dumping a town isnít the last word and you either have to keep fighting until the last troops go in on both sides. If 88ís and resups were added to counter hoarding that is apparently is no longer happening, why the weekly ďhoardĒ posts on here? Thereís an active one now essentially.

Iím not trying to be insensitive to others but these feel like ďpilot onlyĒ centered complaints. Lots of irons in this fire.
« Last Edit: February 27, 2024, 04:30:38 PM by Dadtallica »
Back in 2022 after a loooooong break from 2010. Old name Ratpack, same for the BBS.

Squad I did the most tours with were the Excaliburs then The 172nd Rabid Dogs. Still trying to talk Illigaf, Coola, Oldman22, and Joecrow into coming back instead of being boring old farts!

Offline popeye

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Re: Dot Dar
« Reply #49 on: February 27, 2024, 05:00:53 PM »
I think the current "airplane" dar would be useful to a new player.  Not only for finding fights, but also to get a sense of patterns of activity in the game.  Maybe new players could have "airplane" dar for the first (some number) hours of play, then switch to dot dar.

As has been suggested, the update rate of "proximity" dar is adjustable.  It might be interesting to link the proximity (and field?) dar update rate to the condition of the dar strat, and make field dar downtime a fixed 15 minutes like hangars.  A long time between updates would make the proximity dar less effective as a substitute for SA.

Or, something....     :D
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Offline LilMak

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Re: Dot Dar
« Reply #50 on: February 27, 2024, 10:28:48 PM »
What you pay for? What about what the guy in the 88 pays for?

The unicorn beauty of AH is how subjective it is. Some, only fly, some only drive. This is not solely an A2A game.
Never did I say you canít drive or shouldnít. You really need to work on your reading comprehension or suppress that need to be triggered whenever anyone suggests something that you might not initially agree with.

I stand by my statement that the 88 contributes almost zero to the game and will continue to so until its gone or people stop hiding in it. Itís a grief weapon for those who are too lazy, drunk, or unskilled to meet on the virtual battlefield.

As you play in our little ďsubjectiveĒ sandbox doing whatever you like, ask yourself this questionÖ

ďIf everyone was doing this right now, would this game be any fun?Ē

If your honest answer is that it would NOT be any fun. Change what youíre doing for the sake of the community and the game. Because, if we had 100 players sitting in 88s, this game wouldnít last 2 minutes.
"When caught by the enemy in large force the best policy is to fight like hell until you can decide what to do next."
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Offline GasTeddy

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Re: Dot Dar
« Reply #51 on: February 28, 2024, 02:03:43 AM »

I stand by my statement that the 88 contributes almost zero to the game and will continue to so until its gone or people stop hiding in it. Itís a grief weapon for those who are too lazy, drunk, or unskilled to meet on the virtual battlefield.


When VH and ord were down and there was a tank or two at field, I was lazy, drunk and unskilled and used 88. Maybe selfish as well not offering easy kills by trying to take off and strafe those tanks. Sorry, my deepest apologizes because of that. Also at tank bases and harbors I've been committing the very sin. Could not hit aircrafts with it, but I really used it against GVs.

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Offline The Fugitive

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Re: Dot Dar
« Reply #52 on: February 28, 2024, 07:21:36 AM »
When VH and ord were down and there was a tank or two at field, I was lazy, drunk and unskilled and used 88. Maybe selfish as well not offering easy kills by trying to take off and strafe those tanks. Sorry, my deepest apologizes because of that. Also at tank bases and harbors I've been committing the very sin. Could not hit aircrafts with it, but I really used it against GVs.

(Image removed from quote.)

The other option is to up one field over in either a GV or plane and come back and kill the tanks. Driving or flying from another base only takes a few minutes. How long do you sit in an 88 hoping a tank comes with in your range of fire?

Offline LilMak

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Re: Dot Dar
« Reply #53 on: February 28, 2024, 07:26:27 AM »
When VH and ord were down and there was a tank or two at field, I was lazy, drunk and unskilled and used 88. Maybe selfish as well not offering easy kills by trying to take off and strafe those tanks. Sorry, my deepest apologizes because of that. Also at tank bases and harbors I've been committing the very sin. Could not hit aircrafts with it, but I really used it against GVs.
Iíve used it that way too. Recently. Changes nothing. If you allow a kid on the sideline to trip players on the field, it doesnít make them part of the team. The implication that the only other option is to up from a field that is overrun is as trite as your gif.

My problem is not really with the 88s or M3s as tools or the skill of the people using them. They had their place and time but I believe that time had passed given the population of the MA. Using the sideline analogy, I believe the waterboys need to get off the bench a throw on some pads. And, until they do, I will always taunt them by saying Gatorade is better than water.
"When caught by the enemy in large force the best policy is to fight like hell until you can decide what to do next."
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P-47 pilot 56th Fighter Group.

Offline Banshee7

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Re: Dot Dar
« Reply #54 on: February 28, 2024, 10:14:34 AM »
Iíve used it that way too. Recently. Changes nothing. If you allow a kid on the sideline to trip players on the field, it doesnít make them part of the team. The implication that the only other option is to up from a field that is overrun is as trite as your gif.

My problem is not really with the 88s or M3s as tools or the skill of the people using them. They had their place and time but I believe that time had passed given the population of the MA. Using the sideline analogy, I believe the waterboys need to get off the bench a throw on some pads. And, until they do, I will always taunt them by saying Gatorade is better than water.

Eloquently put, sir.   :cheers:
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Offline turt21

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Re: Dot Dar
« Reply #55 on: February 28, 2024, 11:00:37 AM »
A lot of the tools that were put in place (88s and m3 runs) were put in place to combat mass hordes that we donít really have anymore. They had their place but I donít think theyíre all that useful for game play these days.

Every time I hear an 88 popping off, I just get reminded that there is another player in an ever dwindling community that isnít participating in meaningful combat. While I can appreciate the skill it takes to get accurate with those things, theyíre little more than a distraction as I buzz around the virtual skies. I canít remember the last time I was actually hit by one but it wonít stop someone from sitting in one missing me for 15-20 minutes. Itís frustrating because, in my head, thatís a player that could be in a plane or a GV contributing to what I pay for which is player on player combat. Instead theyíre basically avoiding any risk and contributing nothing in the way of action.

I believe M3s resup had its place too. But itís now become the default in base defense. Why actually challenge aircraft or tanks when you can wipe out three or more players efforts to shut down a town with a single short drive (and why is driving faster than flying?). Again, itís especially frustrating for me when I realize thatís another player that I could be pitting my skills against who is no longer in combat.

Proximity dar has dumbed down the need to apply any kind of SA or thought. It makes it easier for pickers to find already ganged targets which used to require some sort of communication or extrapolation. Cockpit visibility as an attribute is negated because you donít even need to look outside to see the enemy. Just bring up the map and you know exactly where the enemy is and what it is (fighter/bomber). Clouds are pointless because you can, not only see aircraft on your map, but know exactly which direction theyíre flying. No need to investigate whether itís a fighter or bomber. No need to wonder if youíre putting yourself in jeopardy if you bounce someone. All right there on your map.

what Im reading here is someone resenting us less skilled players providing a target for him. After repeatedly getting nailed in the air I look for something I might enjoy more. And dont give me a linenabout more practice makes perfect. Ive been playing this sim since the earlier 80's.

Offline JimmyD3

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Re: Dot Dar
« Reply #56 on: February 28, 2024, 11:19:32 AM »
Your guys are still missing the point. I would suggest that the majority of the players today, play for 1 of 2 things, Points or Base Capture/Defense. The players just looking for a fight are in the minority. Not suggesting in anyway, any of the 3 are more/less important than the other 2.

A) I see a VBase flashing, radar shows a fighter already at the base. #1 I want to defend the base. #2 I either jump in a man gun, or get a Wirbl out. There is no sense in going to an adjacent base for a fighter, the con will have it de-acked before I can get there (this is ignoring the fact I am a lousy fighter pilot). As an aside, this applies to Ports as well.

B) Air Base flashing. #1 I want to defend the base. #2 I either up a fighter and try to gain altitude, Get a GV out, or jump in a man gun. If necessary I can up a fighter from an adjacent base, or spawn in, in GV.

Now add the vulching and bombing to the mix. What would you suggest I do different?

As a clarification, a Horde is any group that out numbers the opposing group. There is no magic number.
« Last Edit: February 28, 2024, 11:23:00 AM by JimmyD3 »
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Offline Dadtallica

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Re: Dot Dar
« Reply #57 on: February 28, 2024, 11:42:11 AM »
This isnít a flight simÖ thatís it. Sooner some people get around on that the easier it will be for all.

Itís the most robust WWII only sim around and itís probably the most subjective.

RememberÖ
Back in 2022 after a loooooong break from 2010. Old name Ratpack, same for the BBS.

Squad I did the most tours with were the Excaliburs then The 172nd Rabid Dogs. Still trying to talk Illigaf, Coola, Oldman22, and Joecrow into coming back instead of being boring old farts!

Offline GasTeddy

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Re: Dot Dar
« Reply #58 on: February 28, 2024, 11:50:20 AM »
The other option is to up one field over in either a GV or plane and come back and kill the tanks. Driving or flying from another base only takes a few minutes. How long do you sit in an 88 hoping a tank comes with in your range of fire?

Those are plausible options, when air above the base is clear from cons or controlled by friendlies, which is rarely the case. Especially lately, because of Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Well, haven't been there for a week so maybe situation is changed. Which I doubt.
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Offline LilMak

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Re: Dot Dar
« Reply #59 on: February 29, 2024, 01:14:37 PM »
This isnít a flight simÖ thatís it. Sooner some people get around on that the easier it will be for all.

Itís the most robust WWII only sim around and itís probably the most subjective.

RememberÖ
(Image removed from quote.)
SighÖ

Clearly the name ďAces HighĒ doesnít imply that itís a flight sim at all. Neither does the fact that is lineage is derived directly from Warbirds and Air Warrior before that. Clearly its comparisons to IL-2 and DCS has nothing to do with flight sims either.

The first two sentences of the write up on the home page clearly stresses itís not a flight sim eitherÖ

ďAces High takes the art and science of vintage WW1 and WW2 air combat and sets it in a high intensity online multiplayer environment.  Hundreds of players simultaneously battle it out against each other in massive aerial dogfights and bomber raids.Ē

Öall these years Iíve been playing the wrong game. Iím so embarrassed. Thank you for clearing that up for me.
"When caught by the enemy in large force the best policy is to fight like hell until you can decide what to do next."
~Hub Zemke
P-47 pilot 56th Fighter Group.