Author Topic: Dweeb shots???  (Read 3298 times)

Offline Bopgun

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Re: Dweeb shots???
« Reply #45 on: April 25, 2024, 11:29:41 AM »
I'm with Shane on this. Match Play should end when someone achieves a six-shot. Trogdor and I (amongst others) had endless fun with that mutual understanding over the years. That's the difference between a for-fun duel and a grudge match.

So like "dead six-shots" are the proper method of fun dueling? It's interesting because I've fought Trogdor in the DA alot and he's never had and issue with the way I fly as far as I know.
Some screenshots for reference. If you could point out which ones are "For-fun" vs "Grudge Match" style I guess.

Quote
Hello Bopgun,

I believe Skyrr to be suffering in some way that I've outlined in my previous post in this thread. The questions I've asked there highlight precisely what I believe the problem to be. I ask them with genuine concern. I do not have much hope that he will engage on that subject. But I do know one thing. If healing was the goal then this community is populated by enough loving and generous people that, even from the sordid depths of this dweebery, Skyrr still has an avenue to become a respected and positive member of this community.

If you're asking me about face shots in a duel? Couldn't give a rats arse.
If you don't care about the OP thats fine, but the 10+ year argument is kind of a derail.
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Offline mechanic

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Re: Dweeb shots???
« Reply #46 on: April 25, 2024, 11:35:51 AM »
My friend, there are literally hundreds of threads spanning two decades on the subject of head on shots.

You'll be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks the topic deserves more than a cursory glance. Every opinion you could ever hear about it has been repeated ad infinitum. Use the search bar for further investigation.

S!
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline Simon

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Re: Dweeb shots???
« Reply #47 on: April 25, 2024, 11:44:31 AM »
So like "dead six-shots" are the proper method of fun dueling? It's interesting because I've fought Trogdor in the DA alot and he's never had and issue with the way I fly as far as I know.
Some screenshots for reference. If you could point out which ones are "For-fun" vs "Grudge Match" style I guess.

Sis, TBH I didn't watch the films, and only glanced through the commentary, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. On a general level though, I've always enjoyed the duels that last long enough for someone to achieve a positional advantage, rather than just a shooting opportunity. Eventually the former will happen if you let it. Sure, it's a utopian view, and it is the way I prefer it, but don't expect it.


Offline Shane

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Re: Dweeb shots???
« Reply #48 on: April 25, 2024, 11:51:12 AM »
So like "dead six-shots" are the proper method of fun dueling? It's interesting because I've fought Trogdor in the DA alot and he's never had and issue with the way I fly as far as I know. Some screenshots for reference. If you could point out which ones are "For-fun" vs "Grudge Match" style I guess.
If you don't care about the OP thats fine, but the 10+ year argument is kind of a derail.


No "dead-six" isn't it.  The shots you took were valid from your perspective (and a formal dueling bracket perspective.) They're just not the kind of fights I'm there for.

Let me put it this way - if I wanted MA style fights, I'll stick to the MA.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2024, 11:59:58 AM by Shane »
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Offline Skyyr

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Re: Dweeb shots???
« Reply #49 on: April 25, 2024, 12:04:06 PM »
LOL you sound just like Judge and all the other troglodytes who are quick to say "waa" or "cry" when they are checkmated with logic and reason.


Logic and reason would dictate not doing things like crying on the forums when you die in a game, or whining about "being hunted" because a person used their 6 hour side-switch legally and fairly. But hey, it's very clear you aren't familiar with either.

You do you.
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Offline Simon

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Re: Dweeb shots???
« Reply #50 on: April 25, 2024, 12:35:55 PM »

Logic and reason would dictate not doing things like crying on the forums when you die in a game, or whining about "being hunted" because a person used their 6 hour side-switch legally and fairly. But hey, it's very clear you aren't familiar with either.

You do you.

What's illogical is that you keep denying that you hunt people using nefarious methods despite being called out for it many times by numerous veteran players, each of whom actually has credibility. Unlike you, a proven liar and cheater. You have put a ridiculous amount of time and effort into trying to defend the indefensible.

Using the word "crying" when someone documents your despicable behavior is a clear signal that you realize you've lost the argument or are incapable of formulating a reasoned response. Do you need a link to a thesaurus, or perhaps a dictionary?

Give it up man. You're clearly not cut out for this. You're much more effective at destroying the game by playing it. In here you just seem entirely out of your league.

Offline Skyyr

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Re: Dweeb shots???
« Reply #51 on: April 25, 2024, 12:58:18 PM »
What's illogical is that you keep denying that you hunt people using nefarious methods despite being called out for it many times by numerous veteran players, each of whom actually has credibility. Unlike you, a proven liar and cheater. You have put a ridiculous amount of time and effort into trying to defend the indefensible.

Using the word "crying" when someone documents your despicable behavior is a clear signal that you realize you've lost the argument or are incapable of formulating a reasoned response. Do you need a link to a thesaurus, or perhaps a dictionary?

Give it up man. You're clearly not cut out for this. You're much more effective at destroying the game by playing it. In here you just seem entirely out of your league.


"Nefarious methods." You mean using legitimate game mechanics? lol. Oh, I forgot, using things like dar bars, score pages, skin identification, and wingman tactics are "nefarious" lol.


I'm capable of formulating reasoned responses; but I only do so when the person is worth that effort.
Skyyr

Tours:
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nrshida: "I almost beat Skyyr after he took a 6 year break!"
A few moments later...

vs Shane: 28-9

"Some men just want to watch the world burn."

Offline Bopgun

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Re: Dweeb shots???
« Reply #52 on: April 25, 2024, 01:08:40 PM »
Sis, TBH I didn't watch the films, and only glanced through the commentary, so take my opinion with a grain of salt. On a general level though, I've always enjoyed the duels that last long enough for someone to achieve a positional advantage, rather than just a shooting opportunity. Eventually the former will happen if you let it. Sure, it's a utopian view, and it is the way I prefer it, but don't expect it.

I can appreciate that, If you ever are curious and end up taking a look I would be happy to hear what you think. I get it if you'd rather not bother.



No "dead-six" isn't it.  The shots you took were valid from your perspective (and a formal dueling bracket perspective.) They're just not the kind of fights I'm there for.

Let me put it this way - if I wanted MA style fights, I'll stick to the MA.

That's fair, I can respect your opinion in that matter. I'm simply trying to see if others in our small community feel the same way as you - The OP wasn't really directed at you(It does involve you so It's reasonable that you'd respond).

My friend, there are literally hundreds of threads spanning two decades on the subject of head on shots.

You'll be hard pressed to find anyone who thinks the topic deserves more than a cursory glance. Every opinion you could ever hear about it has been repeated ad infinitum. Use the search bar for further investigation.

S!
See the problem I have is you're like the only dude flaming this thread who has not offered any kind of real input or even acknowledged the subject of the OP. If you did you would clearly see that the issue isn't really "Face shots".
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Offline LCADolby

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Re: Dweeb shots???
« Reply #53 on: April 25, 2024, 01:09:23 PM »

skin identification

Damn it... Me and my damn obsession with a 109 yellow nose... :uhoh
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Offline Bopgun

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Re: Dweeb shots???
« Reply #54 on: April 25, 2024, 01:14:51 PM »
Damn it... Me and my damn obsession with a 109 yellow nose... :uhoh

Thats why I don't fly with underwear anymore, Keep it anonymous ;)
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Offline mechanic

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Re: Dweeb shots???
« Reply #55 on: April 25, 2024, 01:16:10 PM »
See the problem I have is you're like the only dude flaming this thread who has not offered any kind of real input or even acknowledged the subject of the OP. If you did you would clearly see that the issue isn't really "Face shots".

guilty  :aok

I find skyr's obsessive desire to watch this community burn to the ground more enticing. Forgive me. I'll leave your thread alone.
And I don't know much, but I do know this. With a golden heart comes a rebel fist.

Offline Skyyr

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Re: Dweeb shots???
« Reply #56 on: April 25, 2024, 01:36:49 PM »
Back on topic, the actual problem here comes from a lack of understanding of ACM.

Front-quarter shots (and all shots forward of the 3/9 line) are important because they are a constant threat and need to be defended against in a merge situation. The threat of the shot is what keeps the merge neutral, all things being equal. By having to defend against such shots, it either prevents wide, unguarded lead-turns at the merge or it makes it a trade-off for such a turn, where big gains can be made but at a large risk.

By removing the threat of a front-quarter shot, you negatively impact tactics in two regards: you penalize those with good aim and you penalize those with heavier wing-loaded aircraft that have heavier armament. Additionally, you train and ingrain the bad habit of telegraphing your intentions prior to the merge.

The threat of a front-quarter shot coincidentally makes merges more complex and calculated; removing them makes them predictable and very game-able. Additionally, the skill of merges without shot risk doesn't translate well whatsoever to any other simulator environment.

Conversely, the benefits of the front-quarter shot aren't without drawbacks. Due to the high rate of closure, any shot taken means the attacking aircraft will be at a disadvantage if their shot does not connect after the aircraft pass, as they will have given up angular advantage. The front-quarter shot is also the easiest attack to defend against, because it offers the smallest aircraft profile and a known general vector for the bandit.

Put simply: if you can't avoid a HO, you're doing something majorly wrong.

Last but not least, and perhaps most ironic of all, is where the idea of not taking front-quarter shots came from. It came from AW if I remember correctly. The devs couldn't code an adequately-accurate hitbox on the front of enemy aircraft, so it became comically-easy to hit another enemy aircraft head-on as the hitbox was larger than the aircraft itself. The resulting fix was to reduce damage taken head-on/front-quarter by 90% IIRC, to discourage abuse of the oversized hitbox. This resulted in duels avoiding tactics that used the HO because you lost angles and time in trade for virtually no given damage.

This came over to AH when pilots migrated from one sim to the other and the habit remained.

The disdain of front-quarter shots has nothing to do whatsoever with skill or ACM, it came from a coding limitation of another game. It's literally the gamiest aspect of dueling that has nothing to do with actual tactics.

The disdain shown by certain posters in this thread for high-angle deflection shots highlight the same lack of awareness as outlined above. Every deflection shot taken is a tradeoff for time and angles. If a defending pilot cannot make use of such counter-tactics, then it's due to a deficiency in the defenders tactics.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2024, 02:53:05 PM by Skyyr »
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vs Shane: 28-9

"Some men just want to watch the world burn."

Offline Shane

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Re: Dweeb shots???
« Reply #57 on: April 25, 2024, 02:26:15 PM »
Back on topic, the actual problem here comes from a lack of understanding of ACM.

Front-quarter shots (and all shots forward of the 3/9 line) are important

Additionally, the front-quarter shot comes with several drawbacks.
Put simply: if you can't avoid a HO, you're doing something majorly wrong.

If a defending pilot cannot make use of such counter-tactics, then it's due to a deficiency in the defenders tactics.



This you, right?    How'd avoiding the HO work out for you? Oh, right, you claimed this as a "win." 

Jousting is boring and suitable for MA. Sit down. 



« Last Edit: April 25, 2024, 02:29:43 PM by Shane »
Surrounded by suck and underwhelmed with mediocrity.
I'm always right, it just takes some poepl longer to come to that realization than others.
I'm not perfect, but I am closer to it than you are.
"...vox populi, vox dei..."  ~Alcuin ca. 798

Offline Skyyr

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Re: Dweeb shots???
« Reply #58 on: April 25, 2024, 02:30:14 PM »


This you, right?    How'd avoiding the HO work out for you? Oh, right, you claimed this as a "win." 

Jousting is boring. Sit down.



These were fights of you rage-quitting, right? Because you couldn't defend against a front-quarter shot? :D

I rest my case.

29-6. Boring AF.

« Last Edit: April 25, 2024, 02:32:34 PM by Skyyr »
Skyyr

Tours:
166 - 190
198 - 204
218 - 220
286 - 287
290 - ---

nrshida: "I almost beat Skyyr after he took a 6 year break!"
A few moments later...

vs Shane: 28-9

"Some men just want to watch the world burn."

Offline Bopgun

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Re: Dweeb shots???
« Reply #59 on: April 25, 2024, 02:39:43 PM »
Quote
Last but not least, and perhaps most ironic of all, is where the idea of not taking front-quarter shots came from. It came from AW if I remember correctly. The devs couldn't code an adequately-accurate hitbox on the front of enemy aircraft, so it became comically-easy to hit another enemy aircraft head-on as the hitbox was larger than the aircraft itself. The resulting fix was to reduce damage taken head-on/front-quarter by 90% IIRC, to discourage abuse of the oversized hitbox. This resulted in duels avoiding tactics that used the HO because you lost angles and time in trade for virtually no given damage.
That is pretty interesting.

I agree with you in general in regards to the whole "HO vs No HO" debate, however I don't mind flying to predetermined rules/agreements.

Would these shots be considered "Front Quarter" from my prospective? I guess what still confuses me is what exactly is considered a front quarter shot is it 3-9 is it 10-2 is it 11-1?


I really wish those tri-annual dueling brackets were still a thing, real community sanctioned competition was a highlight of this game for me. KOTH and Combat Challenge were some of the most fun I've had in flight sims.
Ingame: StepSis

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