Victoria Nuland or how we started the Ukraine war in 2014

[Eagler]

I'm not aware of a material discussion that would have resulted in UA signing an agreements before the war started.  Just about anyone serious took Putin's claims re NATO just as seriously as his claims that UA was run by a jewish Nazis empire run by Nato.  These were Russian IO talking points to justify the invasion that was put in motion over a year previously.

Thanks rabbit

Hard to tell fact from fiction these days as everyone has an agenda

Eagler

[rabbidrabbit]

Thanks rabbit

Hard to tell fact from fiction these days as everyone has an agenda

Eagler

I believe you might be thinking of the negotiations after the invasion in March 22 where the Russians were falling apart and UA eventually bailed because the Russian line was disarmament of UA's military to less than 1/10th of Russia and removal of all western arms and support for UA along with a removal of their government in exchange for something more favorable to Putin etc.  It was almost a defacto capitulation with further invasion being only guaranteed by Putin's word that Russia would not just enforce the terms then find an excuse to keep invading.  The whole "were told to fight on" is also a false Russian IO spin on UA being a puppet of Nato from what I can say after listening to what the Ukes said.  They did ask Boris Johnson his opinion of the terms and he said what they were thinking which was the Russians could not be trusted and disarming would simply be buying some time.   So they and Johnson said they asked and he gave them his opinion.  The Russian IO spins has been that they wanted to agree but could not because Johnson ordered them to fight on.  Which is more believable?

 In short, the terms, despite the pro Russian spin, were very bad for UA and they chose to fight on given the signs of collapse they were seeing.

That is my understanding after reading and listening to multiple interviews on both sides. 

[rabbidrabbit]

Hard to tell fact from fiction these days as everyone has an agenda

Eagler

Fully agree.  It's just going to get worse especially without strong and credible leadership.

[Eagler]

Fully agree.  It's just going to get worse especially without strong and credible leadership.

And I don't see any change to that anytime soon...

It's a great time for chaos in it's vacuum

Eagler

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Savage

Just trying to confirm here that Ukraine was going to sign an agreement to keep nato out of its country but was told not to and thus the war started...

Not a putin fan, not a fan of anyone these days really..but I care a rats arse if we have missiles in Ukraine..it's not worth all of this imo

I just don't see an end to this as there isn't nor ever has been an exit plan...seems we like to jump into things without thinking them through..20 years in Afghanistan for absolutely nothing for example

Eagler

You're trying to create a rational reason for Putin to invade. The problem is the Putin didn't need one. Stop trying to assign such a reason. Putin openly imprisons and murders his political opponents. He's a long time KGB officer. He doesn't need any reason other than his desire for power. Look at the election results in Russia for the last 30 years, and tell me he's not a totalitarian dictator.

He invaded because he knew he'd face weak responses.


As far as "exit plans" go, there hasn't been one since World War II. There is only one exit plan for war. Absolute victory. Anything else doesn't work.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

I know mate, we really want to believe we are the good guys and everyone else that does anything is evil. Indoctrination.

So you can't show a map where the U.S. invaded 68 countries and took territory on a permanent basis. Got it. Thanks. No, bases hosted by other nations, usually with paid compensation does not count.

Sorry, I don't accept "moral equivalence" or "moral relativism" as a valid basis of argument.

[Eagler]

Savage

Do you believe there will be absolute victory against Russia through this Ukraine war?

What does that look like to you?

I don't see it myself,  not with Iran and China supporting one side and the US with some help from others supporting the other..

I see a unwinnable war slowly expanding into something no one wants or can control let alone afford..

I don't know the area or it's people, that is why I find responses from rabbit and others from the area valuable

Hoping for peace here on all fronts...we seem to like killing each other just as much sadly

A cease fire would be a great start...

Eagler

[rabbidrabbit]

He invaded because he knew he'd face weak responses.

Another applicable thought would be he didn't do it because it would be easy.  He did it because he thought it would be easy.

He now owns it and will keep doubling down until it becomes clear that continued aggression will have less results than other options.  The weaker the west is the more likely that he will continue.  I would argue that the universal truth that weakness encourages aggression is playing out yet again.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Another applicable thought would be he didn't do it because it would be easy.  He did it because he thought it would be easy.

He now owns it and will keep doubling down until it becomes clear that continued aggression will have less results than other options.  The weaker the west is the more likely that he will continue.  I would argue that the universal truth that weakness encourages aggression is playing out yet again.

Probably correct.

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

Savage

Do you believe there will be absolute victory against Russia through this Ukraine war?

What does that look like to you?

I don't see it myself,  not with Iran and China supporting one side and the US with some help from others supporting the other..

I see a unwinnable war slowly expanding into something no one wants or can control let alone afford..

I don't know the area or it's people, that is why I find responses from rabbit and others from the area valuable

Hoping for peace here on all fronts...we seem to like killing each other just as much sadly

A cease fire would be a great start...

Eagler

I'm not sure I expect absolute victory, I don't, really. Obviously, absolute victory would be Russia returning to its original border. It's more a matter of containment, and not showing the weakness of appeasement, which guarantees more expansionism.


I'm not sure I see a radical expansion. I don't think anyone wants that, despite the threats of nuclear weapons from time to time from various Russian forces.

I don't know how long Russia can keep going without running out of money. I'm not sure China is willing to make the investment, their economy isn't that great, and there's limited return for them unless there's total collapse in the west. China wants Taiwan a lot more than they want Russia to have Ukraine. Their relationship is one of convenience, not of actual kinship.

The rest of Europe does not want Russian expansionism to continue, at some point, many will invest more.

Putin does have an expiration date, he is human, best we can tell, and not immortal. The question is who is his successor, and are they cut from the same cloth?


Again, I do not like war, but there are things I like less.

And yes, I'm concerned with our problems here. I'm not even sure we have not reached the point of no return. Our government is horrifically corrupt, and I'm not sure it can be reversed. It's full of huge numbers of corrupt life long unelected bureaucrats, in every government agency. It will take a president willing to act, with a solid majority in both houses in congress led by people willing to act. I'm not sure we can ever get that, and get it in time. If we cannot return to a government that is actually within the Constitution, and properly restrained by it, I doubt my grand sons will enjoy true liberty all of their lives. You have no idea how that angers me.

[Eagler]

... I would argue that the universal truth that weakness encourages aggression is playing out yet again.

What is the key "weakness " do you believe triggered this?

Was the previous relationship of this "weakness" and Ukraine just coincidence?

Some of us in the states still need to have clarity on what went on in Ukraine from 08 to 16 between world leaders and their relatives...but those investigations don't have the backing nor priority other investigations seem to have..

Eagler

[Captain Virgil Hilts]

What is the key "weakness " do you believe triggered this?

Was the previous relationship of this "weakness" and Ukraine just coincidence?

Some of us in the states still need to have clarity on what went on in Ukraine from 08 to 16 between world leaders and their relatives...but those investigations don't have the backing nor priority other investigations seem to have..

Eagler

The key weakness is the handlers who put Biden in office (same people chose Obama and chose Biden for him). And, as Gates said about Biden, "Joe Biden has been wrong on nearly ever foreign policy issue for 50 years". Biden was in fact part of the contingent of democrats who decided to stop supporting South Vietnam. There's an element of people in government who like to get involved in conflicts, or at least escalate the involvement, but have no stomach to pursue absolute victory. It dates back to Korea.


We have clarity about the involvement of certain "leaders" and Ukraine from 2008 to 2016. Because we have eyes. There were Russian oligarchs involved in the energy industry. And there were progeny of U.S. politicians sitting on boards of directors and in other positions in that industry. Just because the bureaucrats in D.C. won't pursue investigations, and the mainstream malignancy won't cover it, doesn't mean the information isn't out there.

Just like we know certain government officials were absolutely involved in illegal gain of function research into various novel viruses in foreign nations.

You don't need "official" investigations led by government agencies to know the truth. You have eyes and a nose. If you're waiting for the DoJ to tell you the truth about what the politicians and bureaucrats have been doing, you'll see the results of your own mortality long before you see clarity.

Needing "official" investigations to give you clarity is like needing a "scientist" to tell you water is wet, or a biologist to tell you what a woman is.

[rabbidrabbit]

What is the key "weakness " do you believe triggered this?

Was the previous relationship of this "weakness" and Ukraine just coincidence?

Some of us in the states still need to have clarity on what went on in Ukraine from 08 to 16 between world leaders and their relatives...but those investigations don't have the backing nor priority other investigations seem to have..

Eagler

I'm generally referring to the common perception of the US being a fading super power which encourages a multipolar world that include bad actors like China or Russia.

In the case of the US and the Russian invasion of UA in 2014 through now, I think that this perception has had some validity and there are a number of examples of it.  No doubt there is substantial evidence of US political "elites" profiting off of this to include the Bidens/ Kerry and Burisma which, for the sake of clarity, is/was a pro Russian entity being investigated for corruption by the new reformist 2014 UA gov.  Paul Manafort also advised and lobbied for Pro Russian interests.  I'm sure there is much more to this than that but I don't believe the US had a material role on the 2014 Maidan or much since beyond corruption over foreign aid and lobbying.  The whole Russian IO of 2014 being orchestrated by the CIA etc seems to be just that beyond some meddling.

[Gman]

Wow, the US invaded Canada? Did they say they were sorry?

No, but right now considering how things are, those Canadians that like freedom are sorry they didn't invade and stay circa early 1800s (1812 etc).

 

You're falling for Pravda again.

Comparing Russia in 2022 to the U.S. in 1962 is comparing apples for oranges.

The U.S. is not pursuing expansionism. Russia has only stopped pursuing expansionism when they're broke, and there's a decent level of strength elsewhere.

I'm no fan of Zelensky. However, Ukraine simply isn't required by any measure to sit defenseless with Russia on their border leering at them with a lustful eye.

Again, I'm no fan of sending unlimited cash to Ukraine with no accountability, no transparency, and no plan for victory. But I'm even less a fan of allowing Russia to take whatever territory they think they're entitled to.

Sorry, allowing Russia and China to take territory and be aggressive, and allowing Iran to fund and spread terrorism, isn't going to resolve the issues with our southern border or the economy. Those are completely different problems.

Agreed with much of that.


Most here will never say this, but Skyyr has a point. Not about the right to comment, everyone has that especially when they are funding ops, but about what Ukraine is truly like. My best friend has spent much of the last 2 years there in command of a company of mostly Canadians and Americans in the foreign fighters brigade. I had my security clearance approved and an age waiver to go too(it's usually under 35 only), right before I broke my right leg in 6 places and my ankle in 2.  The things my friend(s) saw and experienced are nothing like what's being commonly reported.  He'll write a book (his second) shortly I'm sure, but on all sides of the argument there is so much misinformation. Shocker right.

[AKIron]

Wife worked with a young woman in her 20's from Ukraine for a few years up until a couple of years ago. She moved here with her parents and sisters a while back. She told the wife Russians were all dirty and evil. She didn't say which she despised more and I wasn't there to ask why.