Axis don't need He-177 !

[Staga]

Something I found:

He 177A-5/R2

Dimensions:  
 - length:  22.0 m.  
 - height:  6.4 m.  
 - wingspan:  31.44 m.  
Weight:  
 - empty:  16800 kg  
 - normal loaded:  27225 kg  
 - max. loaded:  31000 kg  
Powerplant:  

 2xDaimler-Benz DB 610A-1/B-1 24 cylinders in v-inverted (two DB 605A in each engine nacelle)  
 - take-off power:  2x2950 hp  
 - power @ 2100 m:  2x3100 hp  
Speed (27225 kg weight):  
 - max @ sea level:  395 km/h  
 - max @ 6000 m:  485 km/h; 435 km/h if loaded up to 31000 kg of weight  
 - cruise @ 6000:  415 km/h  
Initial climb rate:  
 260 m/s  
Climb times:  
 - to 3000 m., 10 minutes  
 - to 6000 m., 39 minutes  
Range (without bombs, bombs bay replaced by fuel tanks):  
 - 2xHs 293 guided missiles:  5500 km  
 - 2xSD 1400 X "Frizt-X" guided bombs:  5000 km  
Ceiling: 8000 m.  
Defensive armament:  
 1xMG 81J 7.92 mm with 1000 rounds in the forward of cockpit and manually operated, 1xMG 151/20 20mm cannon with 300 rounds in the forward part of ventral gondola, 2xMG 81J with 1000 round each in the rear part of ventral gondola (or a single MG 131 with 1000 rounds), 2xMG 131 13 mm in forward dorsal turret with 1000 rounds each operated electrically by a remote position, 1xMG 131 with 1000 rounds in rear dorsal turret, 1xMG 151/20 with 800 rounds in tail and manually operated.  
Bomb load:  
 - max. internal:  6000 kg. of bombs  
 - usual load:  16x50 kg, 4x250 kg or 2x500 kg in bombs bay + 2xLMA III sea mines, 2xLT-50 torpedoes, 2xHs 293 guided missil or 2xSD 1400 X "Frizt-X" guided bomb in external racks.  
Date of deploy to operative units:  
 February 1943  

A-1/R1 Load
Bomb load:  
 - short distances:  48x50 kg, 12x250 kg, 6x500 kg or 4x1000 kg explosive bombs; 6x500 kg or 6x1000 kg armour-piercing bombs; 2x1000 kg + 2x1800 kg bombs or 2xLMA III sea mines + 2x1800 kg bombs  
 - medium distances:  32x50 kg, 8x250 kg, 4x500 kg or 4x1000 kg bombs  
 - long distances:  16x50 kg, 4x250 kg, 2x500 kg or 2x1000 kg bombs  
Date of deploy:  
 March 1942 with KG 40

[Staga]

SW your posts concerning F4F sounds like allied whiner for me.
Just kidding.

Why not forget He-177 was German plane:

Its a bomber, It saw action in different fronts in different jobs (Bomber, Tank-killer, cargoplane, Antiship missile-carrier), It got good defensive armament if compared to some other bombers, Its bombload was good as you can see.
Looks like a good bomber for this game IMHO.

[AKSWulfe]

Maybe.. I'm just saying Axis includes a few other nations (Italy/Japan) that *may* have better bombers or something different...

If it says "Axis" in the title, I think it should include an option to allow anyone to add their 2cents on any Axis nation.
-SW

[DingHao2]

Listen: i was the starter of that topic, and as i recall, i stated in the beginning that i wasn't an expert on japanese or italian planes--i was inviting discussion on that too.  While i would prefer an He-177 or Ju-388, i would also accept a japanese or italian heavy.  And notice--HEAVY--not a medium bomber or light bomber--that means no axis early war planes.

[Staga]

Few other possibilities for Axis heavy bomber:
G10N1 Fugaku, payload depended of range  11000 - 43000lb, six engined. Just in drawingboard.
Kawasaki Ki-91, Payload 8800lbs. Prototype was partially ready when bomb-raid destroyed jigs.
Piaggio P108, 3500kg bomb-load, Piaggio built 24 of these, not sure if another company built more.

[Staga]

Originally posted by juzz:

Fact is, the Axis forces don't really have a "heavy" bomber in the same class as the Lancaster and B-17(unless you want to get into prototypes and very low production types).

Looks like He-177 really was a heavy bomber, wasn't a prototype and with more than one thousand built I guess it doesn't really fit in "Low Production category"  

[juzz]

It's the exception to the rule!  

Btw, staga in the other thread you posted:

"One thing looks strange:
Most sites say internal load was only about 2200lb while its overall capacity was over 13000lb. So it was carrying +10000lb under wings and fuselage?"

I think you might have found your answer already, but here goes anyway...

If you look at a cutaway or 3-view, you will see that the He 177 has three bomb bays - each one can hold 2x1000kg bombs, side by side. So total 6x1000kg can be carried internally.  

But for longer range on the A-5, the two forward bays were often blanked off and bigger fuel tanks filled them. Also the missile pylon was located under the forward bay. This explains why the A-5 has only 1/3 the bombload of the A-1 in the stats you posted above.  

[LtHans]

What difference does it matter if someone goes up in a Japanese bomber instead of a B26?

For some people it makes quite a bit of difference.  I for one try to only fly one countries aircraft to the exclusion of all the others to make the game more interesting.  Some historical based squads have this as a rule too.

I can't really fly only Japanese bomber aircraft this tour, can I?

[AKSWulfe]

Originally posted by LtHans:
For some people it makes quite a bit of difference.  I for one try to only fly one countries aircraft to the exclusion of all the others to make the game more interesting.  Some historical based squads have this as a rule too.

I can't really fly only Japanese bomber aircraft this tour, can I?

So I take it, by this you mean you should come first and the Japanese squads shouldn't get a bomber? I mean, they have _THREE_ aircraft. The Italians have _TWO_ aircraft.
-SW

[Staga]

Juzz do you have any idea what were Greifs ranges with different loads?
Looks like with with internal bomb-bay tanks it was about 5500km with missiles hanging under wings.

[juzz]

I don't have any range figures, unfortunately.  

But, I do have the fuel capacity.

*There are 4 fuselage tanks + 4 wing tanks.
*Each outer wing tank is 1120l in capacity.
*Each inner wing tank is 621l in capacity.
*The front 2 fuselage tanks are 1520l each(increasing to 3450l when bomb bay is blanked off).
*The rear 2 fuselage tanks are 1140l each.

So biggest possible fuel load is 12662l(which would give the 5500km range with missiles on the wings).

With the smaller fuselage tanks fitted total capacity is reduced to 8802l.

But I think it's likely that with 6000kg of bombs loaded, you would have to have less than 8802l of fuel in order not to exceed the maximum weight of 31000kg.

[ 07-30-2001: Message edited by: juzz ]

[Karnak]

Staga,

If your deffinition of "heavy" is solely dependant on a bombload of 10,000 lbs + then the He177A-5 is probably the only Axis bomber to qualify.  However, if that is your definition, then the Allies only have one heavy, the Lancaster MkIII.  The Ju88A-4 carries as much of a bombload as the B-17G.

I believe that a aircraft falls into the "Heavy bomber" category due to multiple things, durability, firepower, size, number of engines and bombload.  I do agree that Japanese aircraft have light bombloads.  The design requirement to be able to fly over vast tracts of the Pacific ocean dictated this limitation.

Here are my 3 suggestions for Axis heavy bombers:

He177A-5/R2

Powerplant: Daimler-Benz DB 610A-1 (port) and B-1 (starboard) 24-cylinder liquid-cooled engines, each rated at 2200 kW (2,950 hp) for take-off.
Dimensions: wing span 31.44 m (103 ft 1 in); length 22.00 m (72 ft 1 in); height 6.39 m (21 ft); wing area 102 mē (1,098 sq ft)
Weights: empty equipped 16800 kg (37,037 lb); maximum take-off 31000 kg (68,342 lb)
Performance: maximum speed 488 km/h (303 mph) at 6100 m (20,000 ft); maximum range 5500 km (3,417 miles) with two Hs 293A; service ceiling 8000 m (26,246 ft); time to 3050 m (10,000 ft) 10 minutes
Armament: one 7.9mm MG 81J machine gun in glazed nose; one 20mm MG 151/20 in front ventral gondola; two 7.9mm MG 81 machine guns in rear ventral gondola; two 13mm MG 131 in dorsal barbette; one 13mm MG 131 in dorsal turret; one MG 151/20 in tail; internal weapons bay for 16 SC 50 bombs or four SC 250 or two SC 500; external pylons for two LMA III parachute sea mines, LT torpedoes' Henschel Hs 293A or FX 1400 Fritz X missiles

He177 Advantages: Very heavy bombload and high speed

He177 Disadvantages: Twin engine configuration increases vulnerability.


Kawanishi H8K2 "Emily"

Dimensions: Span 38.00 m, Length 28.13 m, Height 9.15 m, Wing area 160.0 m2
Weights: Empty 18,380 kg, Loaded 24,500 kg, Maximum 32,500 kg, Wing loading 153.1 kg/m2, Power loading 3.3 kg/hp
Performance: Maximum speed 252 kt at 5,000 m, Cruising speed 160 kt at 4,000 m, Climb to 5,000 m in 10 min 12 sec, Service ceiling 8,850 m, Maximum range 3,862 naut miles
Armament: 20 mm Type 99 Model 1 cannon in bow, dorsal and tail turrets and two beam hatches, and 7.7 mm Type 92 machine-guns in ventral, port and starboard fuselage sides and cockpit hatches (H8K2, H8K3 and H8K4)
External load: two 800 kg torpedoes, or eight 250 kg bombs, or sixteen 60 kg bombs or depth-charges (H8K1 to H8K4)
Powerplant: Four Mitsubishi MK4Q Kasei 22 fourteen-cylinder air-cooled radials, rated at 1,850 hp for take-off, 1,680 hp at 2,100 m and 1,540 hp at 5,500 m, driving four-blade metal propellers (H8K2, H8K2-L and H8K3)
Accommodation: Crew of ten (H8K1 to H8K4). Crew of nine and 29 passengers or 64 troops (H8K2-L)

H8K2 Advantages: Extremely durable and very well armed.  Great climb rate.

H8K2 Disadvantages: Light bombload and few produced.  Only flyable from water.


Piaggio P.108B / R1 08C

Country: Italy.
Type: P.108B - seven crew heavy bomber. R1 08C - transport.
Powerplants: Four 1500hp (Piaggio RXII RC35 18-cylinder radials; three bladed propellers.)
Dimensions: Wing span 104ft 11žin (32.00m); length 73ft 1―in (22.29m); height 19ft 8žin (6.00m).
Weights: R1 08B - empty 38,1951b (17325kg); max loaded 65,8851b (29885kg).
Armament: R108B - eight 12.7mm machine guns in nose, ventral turrets, waist and outer nacelle positions; max 77161b (3500kg) bomb load or three 18in (45.7cm) torpedos.
Performance: R108B - max speed 267mph (430km/h) at 13,780ft (4200m); cruise speed 199mph (320km/h); time to 16,405ft (5000m) 21.1 min; service ceiling 27,890ft (8500m); range 1550-2187 miles (2495-3520km).
Operators: Germany, Italy.
Production: 1 R1 08,163 P.1 08B, 16 P.1 08C, 1 R1 08M, 1 P.1 08T, total 182.

P.108B Advantages: Good bombload and defensive armament.

P.108B Disadvatages: Slow and few produced.

REPOST DUE TO THREAD DEATH

[Seeker]

From:

German Aircraft of the second world war
J.R. Smith & A. Kay.

He177a

Empty: 16,900 kg (37,038 lb),
normal loaded weight: 27,200kg (59,866 lb) Max. loaded wieght 31,000 kg (68,343 lb)

Max speed at 6000m (19686 ft) 488 kmh (303 mph)
max speed at sea level 400 kmh (249 mph)
cruise at 6000m 415 kmh (258 mph)
initial rate of climb 190m/minute (623 ft/m) service ceiling 8000m (26,248 ft),
range with two Hs 293 missiles 5500 km (3417 miles); with two FX 1400 missiles 5000 km (3107 miles)

Here's the real reason the LW never really got into heavy area bombers (although one or two pattern raids were succsessful):

"For an 80 a/c attack KG1 (the main He 177 unit) needed 480 tons of fuel, which equalled an entire days output from the entire German oil industry in August '44. KG1 flew their planes back to Germany from the Eastern front, disbanded and dispersed to fighter units. II:/KG opersted a few He177 into Jan. '45 but by then it was far too late to make effective use of an aircraft which must be regarded as having had one of the saddest careers in Aviation history".

It sucked.

[Staga]

Normal gasoline used in cars weights from 0,74 to 0,79kg/Litre.
Guess Flight-Gasoline got similar weight in those days ?

[Staga]

I'm sure this one got holes in it but whatta heck:

Empty weight_________16800kg
Fuel(0,8kg/ltr)_______7040kg (8802ltr)
bombload______________6000kg
This far______________29840kg

+Pilots+Gunners+ammo etc ????

Range 5500km/12662liter= ~2,3L/km
With 8800L it would still fly 3800km?

Any info how much those DB's suck fuel with full throttle per hour ?

Didn't sleep at all last night and this frigging office is hot like he_l. One wrong word and you'll got a flame-fest