Give us AMRAAMS ...

[Karnak]

I don't think that anybody here is asking for the La-7 to be perked.  I'm certainly not.

What I think we are asking for is the La-7's damage model to be looked at, and if problems are found to be fixed.

[MANDOBLE]

Originally posted by deSelys
...while IL2s disintegrate after a short burst....

That is most disturbing, "wooden" La7s absorbing several 30mm hits and IL2s disintegrating with five 20mm hits ...

Even more, if you are lucky enough to hit the La7 oil ducts, it will fly forever smoking black.

Almost every La7 I've shotdown was because they catch on fire without any other visual damage (structural). I've never been able to kill a La7 engine and I've never seen one smoking grey, only black (and forever) and once white.

Some months ago I was fighting a mate whose squad switched to knights. I was flying F4U1D and he was in La7. At the first moves I managed to damage his oil ducts, then the combat continued for several minutes. Later my WEP went off and I started to loose the advantage and energy. After some minutes, he got a snapshot and I lost several surface controls, tried to ditch but finally crashed. All the combat was about five miles of my base. He returned, still smoking, to his base and landed. That was an ethernity leaking oil and the most surprised was him.

[MANDOBLE]

Wulfe, with the La7 and from my FE, the first and second 30mm bullets impacted at La7 tail, first one -> white smoke, second one -> La7 on fire. The last one impacted (again from my FE) at the La7 right wingtip.

With the P51, the first and only 30mm shell impacted (from my FE) also at the P51 tail, and P51 was cut in half.

[AKSWulfe]

Well I dunno what to make of it, other than you didn't see it hit where it did the damage.

A hit to the tail will produce only one result- no tail section. You apparently hit it forward of the tail where the fuel tank is and caused the fuel leak. The second one must of impacted the same area or close to it and ignited the fuel leak. The third one obviously did not hit the wingtip, or maybe just hit the aileron.

Either way, I've always seen 30mm do the damage it's supposed to do when you hit plane's in the right place.
-SW

[deSelys]

...I've never had to complain with the 109's 30mm so far. Almost every fighter goes down with 1 ping. If they don't, they're crippled and can't continue the fight.

OTOH, with the 190, it always possible to hit only with the 20s due to the different shells speed/drop.

EDIT: oops I just re-read your post, you were flying the 262 so the 190 comment doesn't apply

Anyway, a burning plane is already dead, no?

Another experience I had: 1x30mm ping on a P47: white smoke. He flies 2 more seconds than explodes (prolly network lag). Have you hit the La7 with 3 pings in short succession? If yes, it is possible that he was already dead at 1st ping....

[Wilbus]

Not long ago, I hit an F6F with a 30mm ping right behind the cockpit, this, in R/L would most likely have killed the pilot if the plane had kept flying at all. The 30mm had a blast of a hand grenade. What happaned to the F6F was that he started leaking fuel, had to put one more 30mm, this time in his wing to knock him down. A b17 is fairly easy to kill with a single 30mm hit, aim for the fuselage fuel tank and hit with just 1x30mm and it will be put on fire.

What i think AH needs, although this sounds a bit like a dammage modell bug on some planes, is an improved dammage modell. Something like Il2's, in AH, we've had more or less the same dammage modell since the start, except for some touches on the GV's and such. It is still the "Hit the aileron with 1 or 2 20mm's and it will blow off" modell, existed allready some years before AH came, and although AH is more advanced then that I think it would do good with a "loose 15% of the wing sufrafce and get affacted". In AH, you can put 2 or 3 20mm in the left wing of a fighter, and as long as the wing doesn't lose an aileron or half the wing, the performance isn't affected at all. In R/L, the plane would lose quite much performance.

[MANDOBLE]

AKSWulfe, IMO, a single 30mm HE hit in the fuel depot would cause a fire or an explosion instead a single fuel leak. We are not talking about 20mm AP rounds, we are talking about rounds able to make one meter diameter holes in a B17 wing.

[Lephturn]

I've never had a problem killing La7's in my Jug.  A snapshot at close to convergence will de-wing them no problem.

If some of you folks think there is a problem, the best thing to do is some online testing.  Grab a buddy and go to some far corner of the main or the CT and do some testing.  Without some real controlled tests, you can't really tell if there is a problem or not.  If you can do tests and show that there is a problem, HTC has proven in the past they will look at the issue.

[MANDOBLE]

deSelys, the La7 never exploded.
With first ping there was an (typing mistake -> oil) fuel leak, with the second one (2 or 3 secs later) a fire, and then the last hit cut the La7 right wingtip. The la7 finally crashed with the ground.

In any case, I exposed some personal experiences against La7. As far as they are only my experiences, I could be wrong.
My question is, again: it is me, or most of you are having problems trying to cause critical damage to the Las?

[Wilbus]

Proves that the US 50 cal is way better then german 20mm and 30mm too! (J/K).

Seriously though, a 30mm impact in the fuselage of a small plane like tha LA7 should bring it down, many modern jet fighters even today will go down from 1 or 2 30mm hits, it is not as if it makes a nice 30mm big hole in the wing, these things are packed with High Explosives.

A10 can take it, SU25/39 can take it too, during the SU39 tests they required 30x20mm hits to bring it down, pretty cool
Nothing to do with AH though, just pretty cool.

Will see if I can post some 30mm hits.

[AKSWulfe]

Okay, now your story is changing Mandoble.

At first it was a fuel leak, then fire, then right wing falls away. Now it's oil leak (dark color), fire, then right wingtip.

The first hit caused an oil leak? I see nothing wrong with that. Radial engines can have several cylinders blown away and keep running.

The second hit caused a fuel leak? Sometimes shells don't detonate. Sometimes they pass through the plane leaving only a hole. While other times, the shell will blow up but could very well only send shrapnel into the fuel tank causing the fuel leak while the actual fuel tank will not blow up.

There's many possible things that could happen in RL, so you don't get the effect you thought it should produce... but you want a more in-depth and realistic model?

30mm hits the right wingtip and goes down- I'm assuming you see nothing wrong with that.
-SW

[-ammo-]

IMO the P-38 is the toughest fighter in AH. I am sometimes flabbergasted at how much lead that thing can absorb.

Mandoble, do you have a film of these encounters?  I am privating my e-mail address for you to send them to me. I am interested to see those.

edit-- I guess PM's are disabled??  if you have the films I will get the addy to you.

[MANDOBLE]

1 - fuel (WHITE)
2 - Fire
3 - wingtip gone -> La7 goes down spiraling and crashed.

The 262 case is disturbing, but the 190A8 long burst was much, much more disturbing. With the 262 we are talking about 3 sequential 30mm hits, with the 190A8 there were A LOT of hits concentrated in the frontal La7 side and wing root, and, as final result, only a fire. Anyother plane would just exploded with half these hits.

sorry -ammo- not filmed. But I'm not interested into proving that to the comunity, if it is only me, then no matter to have it filmed or not. It could have been due bad cnx, etc. What I have is a single question, do most of you find La7 "extremely" hard to damage or not?

[AKSWulfe]

Mandoble, why do you encounter so many problems with certain planes- SpitIX, La7- while others are flying around killing them no problem flying planes just as bad, or worse, than yours?

Why is it, that if you run into these peculiar occurances enough to think it's a problem, you never manage to catch any of these things on film?

I have never had a problem downing a La7 with a short burst in AH. Probably because I aim for the tail or wings-it's a guarnateed kill.
-SW

[Wilbus]

Ammo, the P38 takes ALOT and ALOT of dammage, it goes down by a 30mm hit though, atleast I have never seen one that hasn't. I've put 30mm in both the LA7 and F6F without them going down, P38 is close to them, and it can take lots of led (flew one the other day, got jumped by a 109 while typing, heard a ton of 13mm and 20mm hits but lost nothing but an engine and a flap).

Allso, radial engines can take alot of dmmage yes, but if the LA7 engine can, why does the 190 engine still die after a 20mm?