TOD, Fubar events and Tards.

[214thCavalier]

Having read the Vikings report on there problems at take off and as its a 1 life event does this mean that we have a "Tards" window at take off for "FUBAR" scenarios ?
Obviously nobody has a problem with reupping for discos, but maybe  this "Fubar" scenario needs some clarification in case similar happens again.
Btw i post as an Axis player in this Tod so am on the same team as the Vikings but in my opinion if a huge FUBAR event occurs at frame start i think you should be allowed to reup but have the penalty points held against you if not even multiplied.
Main reason for this view is if a whole squad is killed like this at roll, then it will affect everybodys enjoyment of the game Allies and Axis.
Or should the one life apart from Discos be religously enforced ?
Either way is ok with me as long as we are aware of it.

I still don't fancy close escort with the Vikings though

It would also be easier to interpret the posted results if the times that the start and end of flight for whatever reason were shown as well. Example if the time shows end of flight = near roll time then most probably a fubar or disco, also even if mid frame if a lift and land time are very close you could interpret that as being a mistaken lift off in plane when gunner was intended.

[Dinger]

The CMs are supposed to enforce the rules with equity.  So I'd think that if someone pulls a Forrestal on squadron launch, any postevent whining from the other side would be well worth letting those guys fly the mission.
Of course, the problem here is the CMs didn't know of the event.  I can understand the embarassment of having to report such a situation.

[~Pyroman~]

As 90% of you know this was my first TOD where sling let me do alot.  So Sling was distracted with me so it's mostly my fault CM wise.

With that being said, we can't see what happens at every base until we get the logs.  Now my understanding is even if the vikings messed up like they did (laughing  been there).  They should have PM'd one of us and told us what happend and we would have told them whether or not they can reup.  Doing it themselves was the wrong thing to do.  They admit that so that's pretty big of them.

I"m going to let Daddog and Sling handle this one but I wanted to let you know what I understood what was suppose to happen.  DD and Sling let me know if I"m off base here.

[daddog]

If a squad or pilot/s are killed due to a bug or an error on the part of the CM's I would let them reup every time.

If (as in the case of the Vikings) someone launches rockets on the runway and kills everyone that a different matter. As tough as it is I would not have let them reup.  I made it for my squad once and will do it for others.

All the more reason to:
1 - Not drink and fly during a TOD.
2 - Make sure "new" know at least the basics.  

[Dinger]

Okay, I guess I disagree with Daddog.
Here's a couple situations:
A bunch of Hawgs take off of a CV in a crosswind.  The F4U landing gear is particularly touchy, and as a result most of the corsairs go tail-first over the side.  At the time there's no indication of wind (either physical indicator or notice in the writeup) and the side COs do not have the power to steer the CV.

In that case, the corsairs should be allowed to reup.

A squad is taking off on an air-to-air mission.  Because AH doesn't allow players to change ordnance loadouts at the rearm pads, pilots are instructed to go OTR heavy and jettison ordnance.  All the planes spawn in exactly the same space.  One newbie releases a rocket, which, unlike its RL counterpart, fuzes instantly and hits 3 planes in the exact same 3-dimensional space, obliterating them.  The blast also kills him and 4 others.

Again, some leeway should be given for beginning-of-frame screwups.


I see and respect the need to follow rules precisely when the results are in question.  I also (believe it or not) see a need to promote an atmosphere where the enjoyment of all the players is paramount.  
I'm personally of the opinion that messups on the initial launch need to be examined with an eye towards what happened and how it will affect the quality of the frame for everybody.
In this case, grounding the squadron would have had the following results:
The frame start numbers (by my count) were 37 Allied and 31 Axis.  2 of the Axis units were PT boats.  That makes 29.  If the 9 ships destroyed in the "FW-Forrestal" are removed, you've got 37-22 and the makings of an unpleasant evening for the whole allied side.
TOD is currently the only organized team event played on a regular basis.  New players and those not in participating squadrons only get a chance to play these as guests.  By grounding those planes, you give the impression that a newbie effectively lost the battle.
Worse, you give the impression that the single rookie mistake of a newbie ruined a whole week's worth of planning.  The squad in question might have spent days planning and preparing, plus at least half an hour waiting around, only to get blown up on the runway by some FNG?
At that point, grounding these guys effectively discourages the current common practice of squads welcoming new players.

So I say, sure, if you hit the rearm shack (I've done it); if you disco 40 minutes into the frame; or if anything absurd happens after the first few minutes of flight, you should be done for the day; at least you had your sortie.  But anything so silly as to kill an entire squadron before they get off the ground should be considered with an eye to equity.  What is best for the players and the game?

[sling322]

I dont know Dinger...it has happened to me before also.  One TOD we were slated to fly N1Ks.  I have this little bug with my joystick that happens if I dont fly for a long time where the inputs get delayed really bad and I have to unplug it and plug it back in to get it going again.  Well on this particular Friday, I didnt check my stick before I started the engine and firewalled the throttle.  As I started picking up speed, I noticed that the rudder was not responding correctly.  I hit the hat switch to check if my stick was working correctly and the input was delayed.  Needless to say, I veered off the runway and smacked the tower before I could get airborne.  Game over for me....Ghosth wouldnt let me re-up and I agree with him.  

If its pilot error, you are done.  If its a disco then that is a different situation altogether.

[Buzzbait]

S!

Yes, there is the possibility if a single mistake screws up everything, that the CM`s will decide to make some allowance for that, in perhaps penalty points, and allow re-ups so the whole TOD Frame isn`t unbalanced.

But the decision has to be the CM`s.  The players have to be up front with the CM`s as to what happened and let them make the call.

[Dinger]

I concur Buzzbait.  It is the CM's call, and the CM should be permitted to make it.  (Hmmm... WBs used to have a "lifelimit" feature...)
And yeah, sling, I think one person doing something stupid should pay the price.  You crash on T/O because you didn't run through the checklist, you ain't coming back.  I'm just saying that the CMs should have some leeway in treating particular cases.

[Seeker]

What Dinger said...

What's best for the game. Rules are there to help us have fun, not to get in the way of it.

[rosco]

What dinger said. Exactly.

 The whole point of these events is to have fun. Many planes in the air=fun. 8, 10, or 12 planes less due to some stupid reason less than 5 mins into the event = less fun, for everyone, not just those done for the day.  Less fun = less interest in these kinds of events.
 
  Im mean really people, if were going to get upset over something as trivial as this then why would anyone want to bother showing up next week?

 Leave flight open for 5 mins after roll call, and start the logs 5 mins late...problem solved.

[sling322]

As far as I know Rosco this will never work.  If we dont start the logs before roll time then we wont capture the start of the sortie in the logs.  I judge each and every request for re-up on a case by case basis.  If, however, the person rolls again at the start of the frame without asking for CM permission then there is nothing we can do other than to review the logs afterward and determine who might be abusing the 'one life' rule.  

If you have a disco or the game crashes or whatever at roll then I have no problem allowing a re-up.  If on the other hand you crash because of stupidity or otherwise, then I am sorry, you are done.  One of the reasons behind this TOD series is to give folks a sense of being there for real...at least in the best ay we can within the limitations of a computer game.  If you were on a runway in real life and crashed because of some stupid mistake, you dont get a 'roll over'.  I did this myself a few tours ago...I knew that my joystick had a calibration problem if its idle for a long time and I didnt bother to check it before we rolled.  SMACK!!  I ran into the tower.  I wasnt allowed to re-up and I agree with the CM in charge's decision for not letting me do so.

We want you guys to have fun, but allowing multiple re-ups for any reason that is preventable by the participant just goes against what we are trying to accomplish and the sense of immersion we are trying to foster in the TOD series.

[214thCavalier]

Personally i agree with Slings stand, but with the option open to the CM's to allow reups for a mass FUBAR event that would significantly impact the overall event if allowed to stand.
BUT said event to be punishable by points deduction for the squad involved.
Having said that most of these possible fubars could be limited  by launching any guests before your squad rolls after all you fly and know your squad but a guest could be any dweeb fresh to AH.

Just some thoughts,

Do we all have to be spawned on the runway before we are given permission to roll ?
Or can we spawn and roll at say 10 second intervals to drastically reduce a mass fubar.
Again if the field has multiple runways use em, you don't all have to crowd onto 1 runway.
Refueling I got the impression after doing a dead stick landing and rolling onto the furthest refuel pad at approx 4mph that the refuel pads where the old style small versions, but maybe that was just the circumstances made it look very small
Anyway if they are the small version then be aware and take great care as it was always possible to clip the tower with a wing if not approached carefully.
Do we all have to crowd onto the refuel pad at once ?
No, it takes what 30 seconds to refuel / rearm a plane, so slow down if your squad can be ready to roll in 5 minutes then that has to be better than losing a plane to a tower collision.
What it comes down to is we are trying  get away from the MA anything goes style of play and introduce a semblance of reality to the TOD's.
If that means engaging the brain, thinking and actually planning some seemingly (at the time) small details, to reduce the risk of fubars then so be it.

[Ghosth]

Well guys the razor I used to use was this.

If they died as a result of a CM mistake or oversight then yes reup.

But anyone (or multiples in this case) dieing as a result of their mistake, or someone in there squad, well shucks, thats just too bad.  Cya next week.

The imnportant thing to remember gentlemen is that you are flying "ON YOUR HONOR". That needs to take first precedance over flying, fighting, winning or loseing.

[-ammo-]

I could turn KS back on?  That way only one of you would bite it.  What ya think?

[daddog]

Well it will not be the last time we don't agree ding.

A bunch of Hawgs take off of a CV in a crosswind. The F4U landing gear is particularly touchy, and as a result most of the corsairs go tail-first over the side. At the time there's no indication of wind (either physical indicator or notice in the writeup) and the side COs do not have the power to steer the CV. In that case, the corsairs should be allowed to reup.

Frame C.O.'s could ask to steer into the wind, (if there is any). If most still splash I would consider it because "maybe" it was a bug. Sometimes we don't know what caused it. In those cases I might let them reup.  This is always the call of the Setup CM.  When the Mongrels splashed and crashed a few months ago off a CV I choose not to have us "reup" because I did not want any room for accusations of favortisim. When CM's have to make calls that are of an opinion they leave themselves open to all sorts of problems. When CM's make calls that are based on "rules" they will not be spending hours reading garbage on the boards accusing them of all sorts of nonsense.

A squad is taking off on an air-to-air mission. Because AH doesn't allow players to change ordnance loadouts at the rearm pads, pilots are instructed to go OTR heavy and jettison ordnance. All the planes spawn in exactly the same space. One newbie releases a rocket, which, unlike its RL counterpart, fuzes instantly and hits 3 planes in the exact same 3-dimensional space, obliterating them. The blast also kills him and 4 others.

Again, some leeway should be given for beginning-of-frame screwups.

I don't know. Many good points in this thread and players having fun is certainly a priority for me. I tell the CM's that all the time, but there is a balance I have to strike. I do wish we had the "one life setting" but that is not a tool HTC has made yet. Nor would it solve the above problem. I have mulled it over for a bit and still am.  I like ammo's suggestion of killshooter, but I was thinking maybe we could have kill shooter on for the first 10 or 15 minutes and then turn it off. I don't see what happened to the Vikings very often, but it will happen again. Killshooter would take care of that.

What ghosth says is pretty much how we have done it in the past, but I am still thinking about it…

Thanks for the good feed back. That is what causes changes.