Author Topic: P38 Flip-Flop  (Read 769 times)

Offline Raubvogel

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P38 Flip-Flop
« on: January 29, 2002, 12:43:51 AM »
I don't know what else to call it...and I have never seen it done in another plane. You're on their 6...they pull a little nose-up...then *presto*, they've somehow managed to trade their bellybutton for their head and they're coming right at you. How is this done? It's like they just flip in midair.

Offline Spatula

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P38 Flip-Flop
« Reply #1 on: January 29, 2002, 02:00:52 AM »
Thats an allied secret - not telling you! ;)
Airborne Kitchen Utensil Assault Group

Offline mrsid2

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P38 Flip-Flop
« Reply #2 on: January 29, 2002, 02:18:55 AM »
Is this a troll?

Offline akak

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Re: P38 Flip-Flop
« Reply #3 on: January 29, 2002, 03:01:52 AM »
Quote
Originally posted by Raubvogel
I don't know what else to call it...and I have never seen it done in another plane. You're on their 6...they pull a little nose-up...then *presto*, they've somehow managed to trade their bellybutton for their head and they're coming right at you. How is this done? It's like they just flip in midair.




rudders and flaps on a P38 can make it do magical things.

Offline mrsid2

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P38 Flip-Flop
« Reply #4 on: January 29, 2002, 03:06:05 AM »
At first I thought he was talking about the hammerhead which can be done very fast in 38, or the stall-edge rudder manouver which is not quite a hammerhead but similarly possible in 38..

But then I thought Raubvogel has probably been in this game longer than me. What exactly did you mean Raub?

Offline batdog

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P38 Flip-Flop
« Reply #5 on: January 29, 2002, 06:46:32 AM »
Its prob just a lag thing. Your FE is just making corrections and thus what you see and what is happening arent the same. The aproximations made make it look wierd. I've seen this in other planes besides the 38.


 The 38 can swing around quick from a slight nose up w/flaps/trim and rudder though, but I dont think its a UFOish move.


xBAT

P.S. I'm prob abit biased anyway being a 38 fan.
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline Tac

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P38 Flip-Flop
« Reply #6 on: January 29, 2002, 09:43:44 AM »
if the 38 is on a hammerhead it will flip over mighty fast if you have flaps down. But thats it.

"I don't know what else to call it...and I have never seen it done in another plane. You're on their 6...they pull a little nose-up...then *presto*, they've somehow managed to trade their bellybutton for their head and they're coming right at you. How is this done? It's like they just flip in midair"

In level flight this is impossible.

Offline Raubvogel

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P38 Flip-Flop
« Reply #7 on: January 29, 2002, 10:09:40 AM »
I didnt say level flight...I said slightly nose up. It's not a hammerhead, because the nose isn't anywhere close to vertical. More like about a 45-60 degree nose up attitude. I've seen it twice from the same person. They flip around and underneath faster than my understanding of the laws of physics allow. I never remember to run film, but I'll try to catch it next time.

Offline Apar

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P38 Flip-Flop
« Reply #8 on: January 29, 2002, 10:38:41 AM »
Are we talking about a very tight wing-over?
Like pulling up 45-60 deg, roll 90 deg, cut throttle, apply 1-2 notches of flaps, give hard rudder to wing over higher wing, give full throttle and pull to merge on enemy?

Offline Raubvogel

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P38 Flip-Flop
« Reply #9 on: January 29, 2002, 10:54:46 AM »
Yeah basically Apar. Except this is faster than anything I've seen...with very little loss of E. Just seems unrealistically fast.

Offline Wilbus

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P38 Flip-Flop
« Reply #10 on: January 29, 2002, 10:57:32 AM »
Seen it done too, seems to be gaming the game IMO.
Rasmus "Wilbus" Mattsson

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Offline Lephturn

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P38 Flip-Flop
« Reply #11 on: January 29, 2002, 11:22:09 AM »
It could just be a valid maneuver that happens fast enough to seem much faster with the update interval.  Sometimes the smoothing makes it appear much faster than it was, simply because the smoothing code normally does't interpolate well between positions that change direction really fast... it can't.

Unless you can show me that there is a flaw in the FM of the 38, I'd say it's just a valid move that the smoothing code and the positional updates can't quite keep up with.  It's no more gaming the game than rolling quickly in an FW.  Sure, I suppose it can be exploited, but how do you "fix" it without removing very valid moves?

A film would be great, it would be good to see exactly what you mean.

Just remember folks, that with quick reversals of any kind, you may not see all of the maneuver.  There is just no way around that.  When in a knife fight at low speed where these reversals are common, you have to be flying your plane and planning where he will be, not reacting to what you see him do.  It's always been this way for me.  Especially the 38's seem to exhibit this behaviour simply because their design works well for very low speed reversals.  If you watch, you can see a good 109 or FW pilot sometimes get the same effect.  I used to see it more back in WB, but the same thing happens in AH, although to a lesser extent IMO.

I'd really like to see one of these from the 38 pilot's point of view and from his opponent's.  That would be very interesting.

Offline Tac

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P38 Flip-Flop
« Reply #12 on: January 29, 2002, 01:46:36 PM »
Oh Now I know what you mean. I hate it when they do that to me, tiffies, 109's and n1ks pull that crap all the time.

Not to flame HISPD, but every time I see him a tad higher, he always gives 6, noses up and as I catch up he somehow instantly flips nose to tail without me seeing any move on his plane (watching from zoom view, the plane is always shown flying straight up at 45 degrees or so) and I suddenly find a n1k coming down on a HO at an ungodly closing rate!

Note: just using hispd as example, he's the only one Ive noticed to pull this off constantly in that n1k. Im sure there's some kind of lag BS going on that doesnt show MY FE that he rolled over or turned.

Offline akak

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P38 Flip-Flop
« Reply #13 on: January 29, 2002, 11:46:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Tac
Oh Now I know what you mean. I hate it when they do that to me, tiffies, 109's and n1ks pull that crap all the time.

Not to flame HISPD, but every time I see him a tad higher, he always gives 6, noses up and as I catch up he somehow instantly flips nose to tail without me seeing any move on his plane (watching from zoom view, the plane is always shown flying straight up at 45 degrees or so) and I suddenly find a n1k coming down on a HO at an ungodly closing rate!

Note: just using hispd as example, he's the only one Ive noticed to pull this off constantly in that n1k. Im sure there's some kind of lag BS going on that doesnt show MY FE that he rolled over or turned.


It sounds very much like the move Leviathn explained to me a while ago.  The way he explained it was like a snap roll reversal and if done correctly, the pilot reverses his plane extremely fast.  


ack-ack

Offline Tac

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P38 Flip-Flop
« Reply #14 on: January 29, 2002, 11:52:53 PM »
Er.. tell me how you can possibly flip a 38 180 degrees when below 350mph the way they explain it? And doing it "so fast" the other guy cant see it.

Its impossible. The roll rate, with flaps or rudder assisted just doesnt cut it. The only thing that may roll it that fast is one of those $#@$# autoretract flap wing stalls. And those are only done when your plane is speeding up, not slowing down (nose up).

Its something to do with lag not showing plane movements when the plane is farther than d2.0 from you. The other guy may be doing a perfectly legit wingover turn with hard rudder, but you will see his plane flying straight with nose up, and its not until it "flips" to HO you that your FE seems to update and show his new plane as facing you AND closing in fast.