Killing the radar = bad

[Lephturn]

Jumped on for some CT action the other night.  Checked the map... no dar bars.  Ask around for like 5 mins... finally somebody says "action near A44".  Then I say... huh?  Check strat and find out that somebody killed the allied radar completely.  Great.  Log out and go to TA to help folks.

Killing the radar in the MA is rediculous enough IMO, doing it in the CT is just plane dumb.  You should not be able to kill all radar in any way in the CT.  There are just not enough folks online for it to remain feasible with no radar.  I guess the LW was only interested in milk running last night, 'cause once you kill the radar, you sure won't have anybody to fight.  That is the one thing that REALLY burns my butt about the strat system in general... sure, take bases, blow stuff up, fill your boots, but DO NOT make it nearly impossible for me to find action.  That's just silly, and I won't put up with it.  I simply won't fly if the radar is down in any arena, and I'm not alone.  It's basic information required for a quick sortie and I shouldn't have to rely on other players for the info, because it's often too hard to get the information.  They should fix this in the MA too IMO, but it's less of a problem there because there is usually so much more action that you can find it more readily.  In the CT it just means you won't find a decent fight, so you might as well log.  Hopefully CT maps in the future will not allow for the radar to be killed... it just doesn't make sense if you want folks to fly there.

This is the third time I've had to log from the CT due to something or other that made it not worth my time.  The first was dar bar radar range, and that has been fixed, thanks!  The second was the Allies parking 4 fleets offshore, and the third was this dead radar.  Hopefully the CT staff will take these last two problems and address them as well.  I know there are lots of folks that like base capture and the strat game and I don't want that to go away, but please try to balance that part of the game with the basic things we air to air type guys NEED.  I know you guys are working hard... keep at it and we'll get a good crowd in there on a regular basis.

[Furious]

Until smaller maps are in place, maps that force a logical front, I think we will need to refer to the CT as the MRT (Milk Run Theater).

I don't understand the folks who do not want to engage in combat.

I understand sneak attack and the desire to take ground, but not when it is done 6 sectors away from any fighting.  Then its just lame.


F.
(but i still fly there nearly every night)

[Pepe]

Hmmm....I think you might have a point here, Lephturn.

Dot radar & bar radar are different stuff. If bardar is a placeholder for "visual" spotters, general information about the whereabouts of enemy planes, then It can't be destroyed by buffing HQ.

I would agree that, while dot radar should be affected by bombs, bardar should not. And, while we are at it, bardar should only show enemy activity in any given sector when one or more of its sides are in contact with friendly controlled or contested sectors. I don't think they should give any indication about activity deep in enemy territory. Having said that, I am ready to admit that given current population in CT, this could be a step too far.

Cheers,

Pepe

[janjan]

MA radar settings would be fine for CT also.

Yup, people says that no surprise or NOE attacks are possible. Well, that is my point - we should promoto fight, not milkrunning!

[mrsid2]

We've seen multiple times already that this game is slowly turning into Milkrunners High.

Constant gangbanging in the main arena, missions with ridiculously large numbers on empty fields, two biggest country fighting only the smallest etc.. It's every day reality nowadays.

There seems to be a huge amount of players who do not want to fight with even terms. They only want to fight at a superior position where skill is no factor anymore.. A turning enemy is hunted down fast by 2-3 friends where ever the fight is.
They call it 'smart flying' but I call it cowardice and boring. It's so easy to hide behind the numbers and make smart comments.

The undefended fields get 30-40 player missions launched while the defending country has ~30 total players defending the other fields.. Sometimes there's only 1 player trying to stop 20 or more.

Yesterday I picked 17 kills mainly by hunting down beads of enemies after my countrymen. I was in la7 and picked 4-5 players one after the other in a nice row from behind while they were chasing my friends.

One very obvious sign was also how the biggest country kept getting bigger while similar numbers disappeared from the smaller country.. LOL. Someone said this is a game and there can't be cowardice.. Well in my opinnion countryhopping is just that.

[Pepe]

Originally posted by janjan
MA radar settings would be fine for CT also.

Yup, people says that no surprise or NOE attacks are possible. Well, that is my point - we should promoto fight, not milkrunning!

Totally disagree! CT style of playing is absolutely different to MA's one. From my point of view, the second most important single factor is radar setting. To MA MA's radar settings.

Cheers,

Pepe

[Sabre]

The HQ represents the country's main air-defense command and control center in a theatre of operation.  It's the place where all the spotting reports, radio intercepts, and radar contacts from a hundred different sites are funneled and analyzed.  This "big picture" is then fed back to all the different airfields and flak batteries to give each a theatre-wide view of the country's airspace.  There fore, killing the air defense HQ should rob you of a global picture.  The problem with AH is that it should not kill the picture at the local level.  My view is, killing the HQ should cause loss of bar-dar but leave dot-dar available in the tower for any cons within range of that tower.

Nonetheless, the stepped degradation in AH of the radar picture caused by doing partial damage to the HQ is meant to represent this concept of a central clearing house of air defense information.

[Vortex]

Leph touches on one of the more problematic areas for CT imo...ones ability to find a fight in short order. I've probably flown 15 or 20 times in CT this camp. About half of which I've just augered and left after a short while of flying around with no sight of anything and no real indication of where any enemies are. Some tweaking to radar would help in this end.

This is just my opinion of course, but with the small numbers characteristic of CT, combined with the HUGE areas we play in, rolling back the effectiveness or radar to the degree it is now is not the right solution. The upside is I don't think the fix is that hard, nor would it shake-up the status quo much. Simply boost the bar dar such that everything (friend and foe), everywhere (ala MA) is shown on the bar. I realize that goes against Pepe's line of thought mentioned above. However until you get a few hundred people in there on a regular basis, or get some maps that are about 1/20th the size, the current radar settings are a bit too extreme imo. To put it bluntly, I have no desire to fly around playing recon pilot trying to find both my allies and my enemies. For the most part the current radar layout makes it pretty much a dice roll whether I'll find a fight or not.

As an aside, asking "Where's the fight" is often pointless. More often than not you simply get no answer. One really does need to be able to glean this basic info from the game rather than interaction with others.

My two bits anyway.

Vortex

[Lephturn]

You know what, I really don't care what it's supposed to simulate or how realistic it is.  I just want to be able to find a fight.  If you make it too "realisitic" and it's it's too hard to find a fight, you make a very realistic arena that's no fun.  You end up simulating WWII air combat too exactly... that is most sorties you never see an enemy.  I'm not interested in simulating that.

The bottom line is,  if I don't have bar dar to find where to fight when I log in, I'll log off.  Watch the numbers when the dar goes down and you'll see I'm not the only one.  I'll deal with reduced icon settings, I'll deal with reduced range dot dar that can be destroyed, and I'll deal with the 500 foot radar floor.  BUT, if you make it difficult to find a fight, nobody will fly there.  The more restrictive the radar settings, the fewer people will fly in the arena.  I really think it's that simple.  It is for me... no radar = log off.

Again I say, minimize the limitations in the CT.  The thing that is fun and different is an Axis Vs. Allies setup.  People are flying the CT primarily for that reason in my view.  For the CT to be successful, you need to concentrate on that part and do not restrict anything else unless you absolutely have to.  Do not be swayed by the vocal very small minority that simply wants a much more difficult arena, because you will never get enough folks to make it worthwhile if you get too restrictive.

I'm betting the current setup will prove to be the most popular so far.  The reason is that there were few restrictions aside from Axis V. Allies and there were plenty of planes available.  Take a look at the logs CT team and see if the numbers agree.

[deSelys]

This was alread said before, but it seems that it hasn't sink in yet:

IF YOU WANT A QUICK FIGHT, THE MA IS THERE!


Vortex, on some rare occasions, ppl don't answer me when I ask where the fight is (maybe they're just too busy). Then I ask again, and I usually get the answer.

Dar is down, and you can't find where the enemy is? They're prolly flattening a field somewhere. If you cycle thru the different fields, you should eventually hear engines and 'splosions... No joy?? Well grab a buff or a jabo, go make a nuisance of yourself at an enemy field, and you'll quickly find yourself struggling for your life.

Dar is fine as it is in CT.

[buhdman]

The point of the CT, IMHO, is not to appeal to the guy who just wants any-old quick fight.  It is to provide an environment where you have to fly with your wits more than you would in the MA (where everything is handed to you on a green and red, dot-filled platter).  Changing radar in the CT would ruin it for me.  I like knowing something's out there, but not exactly where.  I like knowing I can make a get away when I need to without having the giant Icon-kite-radar-dot giving me away.  I like being able to fly under 500 feet and hit an enemy field with surprise.  I like the thought of being able to disable an enemy radar and blind a field in preparation for an attack.

But I digress.

I'm with you Sabre and all other CT-lovers.  Don't change it or you'll ruin it!!

Thanks!

Buhdman, out

[Sabre]

Take it easy, Leph; my post was a direct response to Pepe's comment:

Pepe said:

If bardar is a placeholder for "visual" spotters, general information about the whereabouts of enemy planes, then It can't be destroyed by buffing HQ.

I was merely trying to explain HTC's reasons (as I understand them) for the effect on Bar-dar from bombing the HQ.  I was not trying to convince you are anyone else of the right or wrong of the current CT radar settings.  

You say above that "People are flying the CT primarily for that reason [axis-vs-allied planeset] in my view."  Well, that is your view.  I believe that is correct, as far as it goes.  However, that doesn't mean other things aren't important.  I have followed and participated in the debate asking for the CT since this board first went active.  The radar settings were one of the things people were agitating for.  Are they a minority of the AH community? Yes.  Would we even have a CT right now without their cries in the wilderness for a more realistic arena? No.

We're doing our best with the tools we have.  Your suggestions are a valuable as the next, and we listen to them all.  Remember that some people view this as more than just a flight sim.  They view it as a combat simulation in a virtual world.  They want an environment that is offers more than just shooting down other planes.  They want to be able to affect that invironment by their actions, moving their chosen side along towards some over all goal, to victory if you will.  Who should we shut out of the CT by swinging too far one way or the other?  The trick is to provide a combination of settings that provides fun for both air to air guys and air to ground guys.  

I could point out that if the HQ was down you could have delivered supplies to it, and got it back up and running in short order.  But I sense you would consider that a waste of your game-playing time.  My counter is, since this arena is trying to accomodate both your type of player and the historical/strat crowd, the occasional radar black out (which doesn't happen often, because of resupply) is the small price you, Lephturn, pay for the privilage of flying axis-vs-allies.

Sabre
CT Team

[Lephturn]

Originally posted by buhdman
The point of the CT, IMHO, is not to appeal to the guy who just wants any-old quick fight.  It is to provide an environment where you have to fly with your wits more than you would in the MA (where everything is handed to you on a green and red, dot-filled platter).  Changing radar in the CT would ruin it for me.  I like knowing something's out there, but not exactly where.  I like knowing I can make a get away when I need to without having the giant Icon-kite-radar-dot giving me away.  I like being able to fly under 500 feet and hit an enemy field with surprise.  I like the thought of being able to disable an enemy radar and blind a field in preparation for an attack.

First of all, I didn't say to change anything else but the ability to disable all radar for an entire country.  I'm not asking for MA style radar.  I'm not even asking to make it so that radar at a given field can't be disabled.  Just don't make it possible to disable dar bar for an entire country.  The minute I mention radar, you guys flip out about the 500 foot radar floor, the reduced icon ranges... etc.  Your preaching to the choir... I have no problem with that stuff.  Argue with me about what I asked to be changed, not about all the stuff I didn't ask to be changed.

In addition, if the CT was going to be successful as a "more difficult arena", then it would have already had lots of folks flying in it.  It's been obvious to me that more folks are interested in simply Axis V. Allies plane sets than simply more difficult settings just by looking at the CT numbers.  In my view the CT should be an arena that is different because it offers only Axis v. Allies combat.  In order to keep the difficulty/"realism" minority happy, some concessions can be made such as 500 foot radar floor, reduced icons, limited plane sets, reduced dot radar, etc.  All I am pointing out is that the ability to completely eliminate all radar from one side in an arena like the CT is not acceptable to me and many others.  Compromise on everything else, but not that.  We need more folks to make the CT successful and fun, and simply catering to the ultra-difficulty crowd won't accomplish that.

[Lephturn]

Originally posted by Sabre
Take it easy, Leph; my post was a direct response to Pepe's comment:

Hey, I'm not upset here, I'm just trying to get my point accross.  I do value what you guys are doing, and I agree that you have been listening to everyone's views and reacting to them.  We do appreciate it.

Originally posted by Sabre
You say above that "People are flying the CT primarily for that reason [axis-vs-allied planeset] in my view."  Well, that is your view.  I believe that is correct, as far as it goes.  However, that doesn't mean other things aren't important.  I have followed and participated in the debate asking for the CT since this board first went active.  The radar settings were one of the things people were agitating for.  Are they a minority of the AH community? Yes.  Would we even have a CT right now without their cries in the wilderness for a more realistic arena? No.

We're doing our best with the tools we have.  Your suggestions are a valuable as the next, and we listen to them all.  Remember that some people view this as more than just a flight sim.  They view it as a combat simulation in a virtual world.  They want an environment that is offers more than just shooting down other planes.  They want to be able to affect that invironment by their actions, moving their chosen side along towards some over all goal, to victory if you will.  Who should we shut out of the CT by swinging too far one way or the other?  The trick is to provide a combination of settings that provides fun for both air to air guys and air to ground guys.  

Agreed, and there obviously must be a balance struck there, a compromise.  I have no problem with that.  All I'm pointing out is that I feel the ability to completely disable one side's radar is one thing that goes too far in one direction.  I understand that folks may not agree, I'm just saying that I think that is one thing that I think should be changed if you want the CT to work.

Originally posted by Sabre
I could point out that if the HQ was down you could have delivered supplies to it, and got it back up and running in short order.  But I sense you would consider that a waste of your game-playing time.  My counter is, since this arena is trying to accomodate both your type of player and the historical/strat crowd, the occasional radar black out (which doesn't happen often, because of resupply) is the small price you, Lephturn, pay for the privilage of flying axis-vs-allies.

Sabre
CT Team

While there is some logic there, I would point out that I believe most players will react more like I did.  Sure, there is a way to fix it, but that's not why I'm in the CT.  The thing is, I think folks will more often log off than figure out how to fix it.  So, it doesn't matter what any one of us individually thinks is "worth it", but what a decent majority of folks would do assuming the goal is to get more folks flying in this arena.  In my view most folks won't even think about how to fix it, they'll simply log, and I think that's bad.  I believe most folks will expect that the price they pay for the privilage of flying in an axis-vs-allies arena is included in the $14.95/ month then send to HTC.

[Lephturn]

Originally posted by deSelys
This was alread said before, but it seems that it hasn't sink in yet:

IF YOU WANT A QUICK FIGHT, THE MA IS THERE!

And that is the attitude that will keep the CT empty, IMO.  I don't necessarily want a quick fight, but I maybe only have 45 mins to spend and I would like to do so in axis vs. allied air combat.  I believe that if you don't cater to the fellow that wants that, you will never get decent numbers in the CT.

Originally posted by deSelys

Vortex, on some rare occasions, ppl don't answer me when I ask where the fight is (maybe they're just too busy). Then I ask again, and I usually get the answer.

Dar is down, and you can't find where the enemy is? They're prolly flattening a field somewhere. If you cycle thru the different fields, you should eventually hear engines and 'splosions... No joy?? Well grab a buff or a jabo, go make a nuisance of yourself at an enemy field, and you'll quickly find yourself struggling for your life.

Dar is fine as it is in CT.

Not everybody is interested in playing in a buff or jabo role, in fact most are not if you look at the popularity numbers.  In addition, Vortex's exprience is still valid... it still tells you something.  YOU may not feel the same way, but that doesn't change the fact that he does.  His feeling that it should be changed is just as valid as yours that it should not.  I'm just pointing out that I think there are a lot more folks who are not flying the CT or are turned off the same way Vortex and I seem to be that we won't hear from here, and we need some of those folks I believe to make the CT successful.   Both of our points of view are valid ones... it's a simply matter of how many folks you think share mine and how many share yours; also which group is the one you need to recruit some of to get more folks in the CT.