Author Topic: Gunsights - How to read them ?  (Read 2094 times)

Offline Wardog

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #15 on: February 14, 2002, 12:07:03 PM »
After practice youll find that lead the lead shot and JABO comes easier. A few years ago Rude (Ice) got me hooked on a single pixel dot site. This gives me a clear view with no obsturctions out the front window.

Dog out........

Offline Fester'

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #16 on: February 14, 2002, 12:31:13 PM »
for new flyers (like me), I think we need to start off with visual aids in order to estimate POM and range.

Think carefully about that.

You are still considering them as visual aids.  They are cluttering the view and hindering your learning curve.

If you are having fun with the sites, then by all means continue to use them.  I've made 50 or more.  Maybe exhausting this avenue is part of the learning curve, who knows.

The conclusion after all that fussing around is that a bore site is far superior.

Offline laz

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #17 on: February 14, 2002, 08:15:20 PM »
FESTER! *SMOOOOOOOCH*

Offline SlpShot

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #18 on: February 15, 2002, 12:43:25 PM »
Fester ...

You have a point there (cluttering the view) but hindering my learning curve, I am not so quick to agree.

Here is my gunsight ...



Since adding the POM lines on my sight, I have found that my abilities to get into the same line of flight as my target has increased considerably.

Also, since I have gained an understanding of the ring and the crosses, I seem to have a better gauge of the distance to the target, all the while never taking my eye off the target.

With that said, and since I started this quest, I have gone from 3 kills/4 assists to 28 kills/13 assists in just a few days. Some of this I believe, is due to the gunsight and some of it is due (not to the gunsight) to all the reading that I have done and trying to apply the concepts while flying.

If you have 50 or more gunsights, then please send them to me slpshot@snet.net in a zip file. I would love to see them.

I tried your link in your sig and it appears to be broken.

Offline Fester'

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #19 on: February 15, 2002, 12:57:07 PM »
It appears you are on the same line of progress I was, your site is almost an exact copy of one I made that I was particularly proud of.  The only difference being that 45^ bars actually reflected the path my tracers would take out of my wing mounted guns.  A lot of trial and error but I finally rested on about 15^  And I didnt use vertical or horizontal bars at all.  Anyway, I digress :)    With the similarities maybe "Hindering the learning curve" may not have been appropriate.  Maybe exhasting all these avenues "IS" the learning curve :)

I dont keep a library of sites.  I scrap the old and start new.  Im now down to a boring old dot, but my gunnery is better for it and I guess that is the only purpose of a site.

Good luck!

Offline SlpShot

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #20 on: February 28, 2002, 02:02:37 PM »
Not that I want to belabor this thread any longer, but I wanted to give those who participated in this thread one more THANK YOU !!!

Since my last reply in this thread, I now have 166 Total kills and 89 assist. I can now go out on a sortie and pick up 2 to 4 kills and once got as high as 7.

The change in kills/assist IS NOT directly attributable to my gunsight, but rather to reading many articles (thanks Andy) along with practice and more practice ... and did I mention practice !!!

Along with practice, I also got shot down quite a bit,  but so did other people and that's what makes it fun for me.

I quote Fester ...

"Maybe exhausting all these avenues "IS" the learning curve".

Boy, were you right !!!

During this time, I noticed that I was no longer having to use the gunsight as a range indicator. My eye was getting trained as to when I like to take my best shot and I began to dislike all the distractions in the lower part of my gunsight.

I quote WarDog ...

"After practice you'll find the lead shot and JABO comes easier. A few years ago Rude (Ice) got me hooked on a single pixel dot site. This gives me a clear view with no obstructions out the front window."

I quote Raubvogel ...

"I meant that my gunsight is a dot. Everything else just gets in the way. I think the most important part of gunnery is practice."

I quote Kweassa ...

"Just get the 'feel' going on and you barely need a gunsight. "

Boy, were you guys right !!!

This is my gunsight now ...



The horizontal lines I still use to show me the orientation of my wings and I have them aligned at the very top of the HUD. This was a hint that I got from Lephturn and Andy. This allows me to see a little more over the nose.

To any new flyers in AH ...

Do whatever it takes for YOU to become a more effective flyer/gunner. For me, I thought is was the gunsight itself, but now I think it was the quest of trying to understand how to read the gunsight that lead me down a path that everyone will eventually take in AH, but maybe my quest got me to and down the path a little faster than some. I think that is what Lester was trying to tell me !!!

Bottom line !!! Read, then PRACTICE, PRACTICE and MORE PRACTICE ... and listen to the "Aces". They have "been there, done that".

Offline streakeagle

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #21 on: March 01, 2002, 12:41:24 AM »
When you don't fly with laser ranging icons, a simple dot is not quite enough. The British ranging circle is ok, but I don't like the horizonal line version...

I personally use the P-51 K-14 style of sight with very small diamonds. Acts like British ranging circle, but doesn't block as much of the screen. two of the six diamonds are conveniently parallel to the wings... think of it as a 7 dot sight.

If only you could turn a thumbwheel to adjust the size of the circle based on the range you are looking for the way the real sights worked :(

As it is, I have used this sight so much, I know the angles and ranges I can hit at even without icons. Though icons help extend my effective range from 600 yards to 1200 yards with those laser 0.50 cals nearly all of the American planes carry.

In my opinion, the right sight can help even an experienced veteran. Though obviously the "great aces" here do just fine with simple dot sights, partly from experience, partly due to range information provided by icons.
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Offline RangerBob

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #22 on: March 03, 2002, 09:58:51 AM »
Ahh all good posts and comments, but sights in real use and in this sim are different.

This early post tells you how it was used in real life...

"Basically you use the ring and gap between the horizontal bars on the ring along with the wingspan of your target for range estimation. This is useful when your convergence matches the range at which the wingspan of your target fills the ring or gap between the bars in the ring. "


Why don't most of us use that in AH? Unlike real life, in AH the range to target is given to you on the screen, so you don't need the rings or whatever to estimate the range to target.

Fester is right on...... don't clutter your flight sim sight with all sorts of aids needed in a real life situation. Keep it as clutter free as you can.


I use two sights. The simple clutter free dot posted above in this thread for fighters, and this one for ground attack. Our squad, Ripsnort's VMF 323, used to do a lot of ground attack missions. I've found this simple ground attack sight to be useful for my special ground attack planes such as the P47 or F4uD etc.  Dive to AAA or ground target, slowly pull up and through the target, never use rudders to insure your line of fire is on, use center dot to strafe AAA, use next lower dot on line for rockets, use bottom dot to drop bombs. Keep your angle around 45%, and with practice you hit every time. You need to practice off line, but when you get it, you got it.

Keep your sight clutter free and simple.

Ranger Bob

Offline Andy Bush

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« Reply #23 on: March 03, 2002, 10:38:55 AM »
RangerBob

I appreciate your intent to help folks out, but let's don't confuse personal opinion and informed advice.

It may be your opinion that having a gunsight with only a single dot as a display is the best way to go. As far as opinion is concerned, that's your right to have such a view.

However, when it comes to passing along recommendations for others, I think you should stay away from opinion. The simple fact is that no gunsight manufacturer has ever contemplated such a sight design. For good reason. The dot that you like is only good for one single situation...one G, wings level, target at a fixed range, and a predetermined altitude. Change any of those parameters, and that sight no longer predicts bullet impact point.

That's what an A2A sight is supposed to do...predict bullet impact point. The single dot concept relies wholly on the pilot's ability to estimate that point in the absence of any other cue. Why don't you then take that thinking one step further and eliminate the dot too. Now you can have a completely uncluttered view!

As for your A2G sight, my advice is that you refrain from advising folks on using it. A2G sight display markings is a very complex issue, and you have failed to mention any of them other than suggesting a dive angle. From a pure academic position, your advice is unsound and unscientific. Of course, that assumes the sim models weapons ballistics accurately.

So, until AH implements a CCIP "I wish you were dead" death dot, folks should read and heed FLS' words. Choose a sight that allows the estimation of range and lead for target motion. That's how it worked for real...and that's how it should work here.

When it comes to weapons delivery, there are three ways to do things. The right way, the wrong way, and the lucky way. At best, the single dot concept pilot had better stock up a good supply of rabbit's feet. And anyone that uses a "one size fits all" A2G sight must still think it really was Santa Claus that ate the cookies.

Andy

Offline RangerBob

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #24 on: March 03, 2002, 03:29:06 PM »
Andy

I've followed your advice, printed out, and read every article you've ever written. Over the years your articles have changed my flight sim flying tremendously. You are someone I have always held in high regard. I am, however, somewhat taken by surprise at your response to my post indicating that I should keep my opinions to myself.

When SlpShot posted

"If anybody has any good gunsights that they think work for the planes that they fly in AH, and could explain what the gunsight accomplishes, I would love to see them. "

I, like most of the others who posted here, sent along the two sights I like to use, and the instructions on how I use them. These were my opinions, just like the opinions of others posting here.

My opinions come from flying online flight sims since they started back in the early days of the first Red Baron, through the first Airwarrior on Genie, later Warbirds, then Airwarrior again, and now Aces High. I would estimated some 10 to 15 years at least. Over these years of sim flying I tried numerous sights, including some of those posted here.

What I found from my experience, and that length of experience should count for at least something, is that online sims give the most important piece of information that most gunsights are trying to achieve. They give you a visual reading of the range to the enemy plane.  Now when I flew with the sights loaded with angles and lines to help line up on the target and estimate the range that is already given in a flight sim, I found the many lines and arcs blocked my visual clues to the target. They often blocked out the range indicator, or blocked a clear view of just what the target was doing.  As a result I, like some others who have posted here, found the less cluttered gunsight was the best for me.

For ground attacks I found the gunsight I use to be the best one around, especially considering that I could close a field Vehicle Hangar almost 100% of the time in one pass back when our squad routinely made such attacks.

Naturally, I wanted to pass on my opinion, and the sights I used, just as SlpShot had requested in his original post. I'm sure SlpShot will read your article, and probably try a few of the sights that have been posted here. One, or two, of these gunsights will turnout to be just what he was looking for. I took special care to keep my post as positive as possible. When I read your reply indicating that I should keep my opinions to myself, frankly, I was a bit hurt at having received such a reply from the guy I admired so very much.

I still hold you in high regard, and look forward to reading your each and every article as soon they are released. I can only hope that you read something into my post that I did not intend to be there. I know that we, and others here, disagree on the use of certain gunsights, but I wouldn't think of implying that you must still believe that "it really was Santa Clause that ate the cookies" simply because you don't agree with me.


Ranger Bob
« Last Edit: March 03, 2002, 03:34:47 PM by RangerBob »

Offline FLS

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #25 on: March 03, 2002, 04:30:19 PM »
Some people want to simulate air combat and some just want to play a game.  To say one personal preference is better than another is silly.  AH allows you to pick either approach or even combine them. Proper use of a historical gunsight has utility in AH beyond simply estimating range but it's certainly not required to be successful in the game of AH. To say that the default gunsight has no utility in AH is incorrect but there's nothing wrong with liking a dot.

Some people prefer flight sims without cockpit art cluttering up the view. It's certainly easier when you can see everything without the aircraft getting in your way. Maybe this will be a feature in AH one day. I wonder if anybody who would object to the removal of cockpit art uses a dot gunsight? I'm not saying you can't do both, it just seems like a similar issue to me.

BTW to say that you should never use rudders dive bombing assumes that you pretrimmed the rudder to the bomb release speed. Since rudder trim changes with speed in single engine fighters the trim setting affects bombing accuracy. It's best to pretrim but there's nothing wrong with using rudder input to adjust incorrect trim.

 
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Offline Andy Bush

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« Reply #26 on: March 03, 2002, 04:47:49 PM »
RB

I did not say it right.

I was trying to say that we have to be careful and separate opinion from hard data. For example...

It is my opinion that the external player to target view is hands down the best view for flying BFM. I think I can back that up with real world experience and academic "proof". But...in the end, it is just an opinion,and I would try to make that clear in any view discussion.

Now, hard data is different. If I were to pass along info to the folks here on the forum in the form of "I recommend this...", I would want to make sure that info is factually based and not just something I prefer. For example, I might suggest certain rudder techniques to assist a pilot in making a takeoff. These techniques would need to be based on fact as it exists in the sim...and not just the way I personally like to do it.

Back to your gunsight discussion. I understand your point regarding the single dot sight. My concern is that the technique may be seen as "the best way to do something" rather than just a personal preference that works for one individual.

The same is true of your A2G sight. If you want to present this sight display as your personal preference, then that's perfectly fine with me. The problem may come, however, if a newbie then takes that sight and tries to "make it work". Chances are good that it won't...primarily because its design is not based on academic reality. In fact, the A2G weapons delivery programming is so imprecisely defined in this sim (or any other for that matter) that I would be extemely hesitant to recommend any A2G sight display.

Looking back, I think my response was a little harsh. Please accept my apology for being too picky. Your last post was very well written, and, had I been able to better say what I was trying to say, it would not have been needed.

Andy

Offline airspro

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #27 on: March 03, 2002, 05:25:12 PM »
I like a peep sight myself . Little circle is 300k , larger is 600k . I use it for all planes . IMO :)
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Offline RangerBob

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #28 on: March 03, 2002, 07:51:57 PM »
Thanks Andy.

As I said in my previous post.

"I still hold you in high regard, and look forward to reading your each and every article as soon they are released. "

Your articles and information are very valuable to all of us. Keep posting.

Ranger Bob

Offline Rude

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Gunsights - How to read them ?
« Reply #29 on: March 04, 2002, 02:44:12 PM »
Eight years ago, I was turned on to a little sight that made all the difference for me and our squad.

We now affectionately call it the DOT OF DEATH!!!!

Not withstanding the immense skill of our pilots, and the magnificance of the P-51 Mustang(Cadillac of the Skies), this little sight is responsible for the death of so so many of you.:)

Simplicity is a good thing!