Author Topic: THIS Thread - It SUCK's  (Read 513 times)

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #15 on: February 16, 2002, 05:56:33 PM »
uhhm  no.......

Swulf, you are in the book of wrong I do "la dee da" believe!

I do clearly recall a conversation with HTC on this matter.  It was perhaps two years ago however.  If HTC says no today, didnt say it then, whelp....... I digress but until they say otherwise the buff guns have a longer lethal range.  Wouldnt surprise me if the GV mgs were the same set up but I havent heard this from HTC.

Its about gameplay dude....g a m e p l a y

G
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P
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Yeager
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Offline hitech

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« Reply #16 on: February 16, 2002, 06:05:53 PM »
Buff 50's or any other rounds do NOT  have longer range or lethality than there fighter counter parts.


HiTech

Offline Tac

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« Reply #17 on: February 16, 2002, 06:22:35 PM »
Urchin, the 50 cal on the m3 and m16 are different mg's than those on fighters. They are not the same browining model .50 cal.

HT, if that is so then why am I getting hit constantly by buffs from ranges past d1.3 and getting entire portions of my plane smacked out with a few stray pings? I just dont get it. Ive been shot at by P-47s and P-38s from beyond d900, been hit a lot and ive never been smacked out of the sky with a few pings.. it usually takes an entire stream of consistent hits to jar something loose at those ranges when its a 50 cal fighter thats lobbing them.

Convergence? what?

*tucks his head between his knees and weeps*

Make it ssttttoooooppp!!!

Offline Creamo

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« Reply #18 on: February 16, 2002, 06:45:17 PM »
Heh, I sound like a little squeak after too much cocktails and buff damage. Still...

If them .50's are just like a say a Pony, it must be the stable platform and all of them hitting the same spot at once that does so much damage. It don't explain the distance they can wack you at though. If no dispersion is the work around for not having alot of buff's together, maybe something else could be done, or at least tried.

SOB, Niki's are hard to hit anything with, you should know that.

Eskimo, trust me, I'll bet you I was floating in 1/2 a dora down jamming the trim and pedals and everything else hoping to stay up longer than the buff I shot down so they wouldn't get the kill. That or leaving with steam pouring out.  That and my first major furball since the 400 people online was last week. They brought in waves of newbies in buffs at 7K, hense easier kills.

You get anyone good in this game behind buff guns, forget it. Can't see why that should be so lopsided.

Offline eskimo2

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« Reply #19 on: February 16, 2002, 07:15:11 PM »
Creamo,
Put anyone who's good in a fighter, and they're going to win as well.
In T-25 I am 9-1.
In T-24, I was 25-4.
In T-23, I was 16-3.
And a lot of my buff attack deaths have always been when I've dumb-assed myself to death.  Often I am willing to exchange mutual destruction for saving a CV or base, I.E. attacking before I really should because he's close to his bomb run.
I'm good, but there are tons of guys out there who are much better buff killers than I.
Great fighter pilots/buff killers win almost all the time.
Much of what I have learned about buff killing I have learned by manning buff guns.
When a guy zips in and cleans your clock, and you can't even ping him because he's got you so dang confused and disoriented, you learn what kind of attacks are effective.

Creamo, go trolling in a B-17.
Get you butt handed to you a few times and think about what the guy did.
If you can picture what he was doing that made him so hard to track, and how he got to lethal range so fast, you'll have a better idea of what to do without putting yourself at great risk.

eskimo

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #20 on: February 16, 2002, 07:26:32 PM »
Look... this is how it was explained to me, and some stuff that I did to test it.  

Buff guns do NOT 'converge' at a particular spot, EVER.  What they do is fire perpendicularly to wherever you, in whatever gun you are using, are firing.  

So for instance-

I see a really stupid C202 that wants to try to sit on my 6 oc and pepper me with the lil bitty guns he has.  Lets say he is actually exactly behind me.  Since there are some 'issues' with the firing arcs on B17s, an enemy fighter attacking from directly behind will be fired on by the ball turret, tail turret, and top turret (as opposed to real life, where if you were EXACTLY behind the B17 only the tail turret had enough traverse to hit you, the ball turret couldnt go that high and the top turret couldnt go that low, plus it would shoot the living hell out of the vertical stabilizer if it was shooting in that direction).  

Ok, here is where the really fun stuff starts.  A b17 is X feet tall from the ball turret to the top turret (lets say X=10 for my purposes).  So what you have is a stream of fire going from the tail turret at Y height (let Y=0 for my purposes)- plus a stream of fire from the top turret at Y+5 feet, and a stream of fire from the ball turret at Y-5 feet.  Obviously, not all of the bullets fire exactly straight.  You will get some going to the left and right, and some going up and down (and really adventurous ones going up and left, or down and right, etc.).  This will obviously happen to ALL three streams of fire coming at the hapless C202.  So what you get is that the rounds that go reasonably straight from the tail turret slam into the C202, plus the rounds that wobbled down a bit when they were coming out of the top turret, PLUS the rounds that wobbled up a tad when coming out of the ball turret.  

It takes roughly 25 .50 caliber rounds to knock a Fw-190A8 out of the sky with the engine gone and the wing taking a seperate path to the ground.  I don't know how many rounds it takes for the C202, I've never bothered to test it.  

How long does it take for 6 .50 caliber machine guns to fire enough rounds that 25 of them hit?  My gunnery is usually about 10% or so, but if there was a guy just hanging motionless in my gunsight (and that is exactly what you look like to the buff if you are sitting on his 6) I'd guess it may jump as high as 20 or 25%.  So, the ROF for a .50 caliber M2 machinegun is (I gotta go look this up) 800-900 rpm (according to Americas Hundred Thousand).  

Math has never been a strong suit of mine, so this may take a while.  

1 .50 caliber MG fires 850 rpm.  Divided by 60 gives me the rounds per second.  Roughly 14 rounds per second.   I need 25 rounds to hit to kill the plane.   If my gunnery is my normal sucky 10%, I'll need to fire 250 rounds.  Dividing 250 rounds by 14 (for ROF)  gives me close to 18 seconds.  There are 2 .50s in the tail turret, so if that was the only one firing I'd need to shoot for about 9 seconds.  Add in the top and tail turrets, that gives me 6 guns total.  18 seconds divded by 6 guns gives me 3 seconds.  

So if I was my normal crap shot, it'd only take me 3 seconds to blow away a 190A8 that was sitting on my tail.  

If I was having a good shooting day, and was hitting with 20%, it'd take me a second and a half.  I don't think the game can even play the sound of 25 rounds hitting you in a second and a half, hence the 'That @#%$#^@&% buff shot me down with ONE #@$%^ ping from 800 @#%#$^^ yards!!!  They are SOOO $%^$#@& porked!'

Anyway, that is about as well as I can explain it.  Hopefully someone more eloquent than I will step up to the plate if people still disagree.

Offline keyapaha

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« Reply #21 on: February 16, 2002, 07:27:17 PM »
i fly buffs alot and it is my experence that most of my kills come from single fighters just floating on my 6 when they close to d800 i let em have it most of the time they go down in flames.

   the only time i dont have a chance  is when i am attacked buy multiple fighters or they use fast slashing tactics.


   just the other day i had 4 190s on me but they all attacked form a dead six and one at a time i shot down all four with the last one also downing me.


   i think its just a mater of tactics on how to down buffs.


  i my self hardly ever fly above 20k  mostly at 16k and i always welcome a good pilot using good tactics but the ones that just sit on my six they are just to easy to put down.


  any way just my thoughts as a buff pilot..

Offline Urchin

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« Reply #22 on: February 16, 2002, 07:32:50 PM »
Now, don't get me wrong, I DO think there are some problems with the bombers- I just don't include their defensive hitting power in my list.  

I think the buff firing arcs need to be looked at, as well as their high altitude performance and bombing ability from very high (25k+) altitudes.

Offline Creamo

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« Reply #23 on: February 16, 2002, 08:00:40 PM »
Don't get me wrong either. A whiney boozonic rant by me doesn't say much concerning their guns. However, I find it hard to believe that after tons of hours in AH I am deploying horrible tactics on buffs most times, or am running into ace gunners 90%.

"Something don't feel right with Buff guns" should have been the Post headline. oh well

Plus, as explained, I pry wouldn't understand the math anyway, so I'll treat them like a higher LA7 and move along. (Pry try flying one too see if I can hit the braod side of a C47)

Offline majic

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« Reply #24 on: February 16, 2002, 08:10:39 PM »
"That doesnt happen in an EIGHT 50 cal armed plane when getting shot at d900. "

The fighter has its guns set to converge at some point.  beyond that point, all those rounds start to disperse.  Say you have your convergence set at 500 (good even number).  Simple math: at 1000...you spread will be as wide as the distance between your two farthest apart guns...plus the natural dispersion of each gun.  What this means...your putting alot of rounds into a very large area.  The question is, and I know there's a way to test this...I just don't know how... are the buffs 50's more accurate (in terms of dispersion) than the fighters, or are they the same?   (Btw...how do you test gun dispersion?)  The other valid question seems to be: How many guns can be brought to bear at a fighter at dead 6?  i. e.- should top gun be able to engage that plane?  Ball turret?  (in terms where they could actually track)

Offline Yeager

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« Reply #25 on: February 16, 2002, 08:25:58 PM »
I have been corrected in my recollection.

HiTech,

what about dispertion?  Does every gun platform in the game have dispertion?  I would swear that some manned gun platforms such as the manned field ack (is it 37 or 40mm?) dont have dispertion like the osti does.

Y
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Offline Tac

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« Reply #26 on: February 16, 2002, 10:27:21 PM »
P38 nose guns have no convergence issue. And they sure as hell dont kill at that long range with a few pings.

My experience vs buff guns is very inconsistent with them being "the same" with fighter 50 cals. Heck I even took a b26 up a few moments ago and whacked a 109, a n1k (wee!) and a spit from d1.4 by spraying in their direction, watching 5 or 6 hits and watching their wings fall off. *shrug*

Thats all I can say.

Offline chunder'

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« Reply #27 on: February 17, 2002, 02:43:03 AM »
Ya know, all this talk about Buffs and I have yet to see a single B52 in this game....

Offline Furious

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« Reply #28 on: February 17, 2002, 04:13:52 AM »
Majic,

To test dispersion, type ".target xxx", where xxx is distance to target.

A large target will appear to the north at the desired distance.


F.

Offline airspro

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« Reply #29 on: February 17, 2002, 09:38:16 AM »
I love to shoot down buffs .

They ain't hard at all , just "interesting" is all .

For Lanc's I get below now , yep took quite a few times to get that move down right but now it works fine . Most times I have to do it more than once but "so what" , will alittle more practice I think I will be able to stall under like they did it the war and one pass should then work .

B17's ? If above I do a diving attack , if possable stright down . If lower I climb just slightly above and 3.0 ahead and to the right and swing around in a front quarter attack . Mutili passes , most times .

Aim for the wing tips if you can , they don't fly with those shot off .

B26 is the hardest IMO , cause they are so fast .

I give thanks to airreapr for the diving attack , but read about the underneath and front guarter attacks in war books and just practiced till I got it working for me . Just as in real life , it works in AH also . It just takes time to set up the shot .

This is the most funny thing about buffs though IMO . I watch many going stright for them because I "think" they "think" if they don't hurry that someone else will get the so called "easy" kill . LMAO watching them come apart in flight while I am getting set up for my pass .


They add alot to my enjoyment in AH . I for one am damn glad that newbies have a place they can have fun and get some kills , etc .

I still remember Hangtime shooting all three of us down , him in Mustang and we three in B17's when we first started this game , and wondering just how did he did that . Well we know now , haha .
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