Author Topic: What really killed Major Thomas B. McGuire  (Read 2162 times)

Offline Widewing

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 8801
What really killed Major Thomas B. McGuire
« on: March 01, 2002, 12:10:15 PM »
I have been privy to a painstaking investigation into the crash death of McGuire, a brief synopsis of which I received today. Here's an edited excerpt.

"With regard to our continuing investigation into the crash that killed Major Thomas B. McGuire, I thought you might be interested to know that from the evidence we've gathered so far, it appears that the crash was caused by one of the engines failing to respond when McGuire increased his throttle settings when his plane began to shudder as it neared the stall speed.  As you probably already know, if an engine on a P-38 were to, for some reason fail or not supply normal power while the plane is at or near the stall speed, then the plane will snap roll to an inverted position as it was reported happened to Major McGuire. The two surviving witnesses stated that McGuire had reduced throttle in order to make a tighter turn to gain the angle on the Japanese plain that was attacking Weaver, and that he increased throttle as the plane shuddered near the stall speed, and at that point, the plane instantly rolled inverted and crashed."


One of the consistant dangers associtiated with WWII aircraft engines relates to the sudden application of full throttle. It was not uncommon for an engine to briefly "flood" and stumble. If you should be below "minimum single engine speed in the P-38, and suddenly apply full power, you risk that stumble, and the result will be a snap roll, stall and spin.

My regards,

Widewing
My regards,

Widewing

YGBSM. Retired Member of Aces High Trainer Corps, Past President of the DFC, retired from flying as Tredlite.

Offline ra

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3569
What really killed Major Thomas B. McGuire
« Reply #1 on: March 01, 2002, 12:47:24 PM »
Why would it take so long to discover this?  If it was not part of the after-action report, I can't see how an investigation can discover what McGuire was doing with his throttles 60 years later.

ra

Offline batdog

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1533
      • http://www.dasmuppets.com/
What really killed Major Thomas B. McGuire
« Reply #2 on: March 01, 2002, 01:04:03 PM »
Errrr...as was stated above. how did they reach this conculsion?

xBAT
Of course, I only see what he posts here and what he does in the MA.  I know virtually nothing about the man.  I think its important for people to realize that we don't really know squat about each other.... definately not enough to use words like "hate".

AKDejaVu

Offline Wotan

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7201
What really killed Major Thomas B. McGuire
« Reply #3 on: March 01, 2002, 01:42:40 PM »
how do they know the eng wasn't shot out? sounds like more a guess then anything


I've read all different things about this from him augering to getting shot down.

I doudt a pilot in a ac could know what another pilot was doing with his throttle.

Anway weren't 2 38s lost on that flight out of 4 vrs 1 ki-84?

2 others ran home........

Offline Vector

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 534
What really killed Major Thomas B. McGuire
« Reply #4 on: March 01, 2002, 01:55:48 PM »
wasn't those 3 others newcomers?

Offline Ouch

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 208
What really killed Major Thomas B. McGuire
« Reply #5 on: March 01, 2002, 02:06:51 PM »
Lets see.  What went wrong.

1.  He was at or near stall speed in a P-38.
2.  He was trying to turn with a Japanese fighter.
3.  (not mentioned in the above post) HE DID NOT JETTISON HIS DROP TANKS!

In every instance where I've read about his death, this is pointed to as the MAJOR contributing factor to the crash.  Speculation is that he didn't want to waste the gas in the hopes of finding more enemy planes during the mission.

Ouch out

Offline akak

  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 986
      • http://www.479thraiders.com
The story of Mag. McGuire's last flight
« Reply #6 on: March 01, 2002, 02:06:52 PM »
Here's the story of Mag. McGuires last combat flight.  It's interesting how they allude that McGuire's death might have stemmed from his race with Bong to get the most kills before the war ended and his orders not to pickle the drop tanks out of fear of scrubbing the mission early.


The Final Mission

     On Jan. 7, 1945, Tommy McGuire led a flight of four planes on an early morning fighter sweep over the Japanese airdrome on Negros Island. Flying McGuire's wing was Capt. Edwin Weaver, whom McGuire had given demerits to when they were cadets in San Antonio. Major Jack Rittmayer and Lt. Douglas Thropp formed the second element. All were veteran combat pilots. The P-38's each carried two 160 gallon external fuel tanks. They spotted a single Jap fighter coming right at them. They departed Marsten Strip around 0615 and leveled off at 10,000 feet, but in the vicinity of Negros the weather forced their descent to 6,000 feet. McGuire led Daddy Flight to an airdrome over Fabrica Strip and made a futile attempt at provoking an enemy response by circling the area for approximately ten minutes. They were now flying at 1,700 feet.

     When this effort failed, McGuire proceeded to another airdrome on the western coast of the island. En route, Rittmayer throttled back while breaking through the clouds and became temporarily separated from the rest of the flight. McGuire ordered his pilots to regroup, but learned that Rittmayer's aircraft encountered engine trouble. Thropp, therefore, moved into the number-three position.

     Suddenly, Weaver spotted a Japanese fighter heading in their direction, 500 feet below and 1,000 yards ahead. The Ki-43 Oscar, piloted by Warrant Officer Akira Sugimoto, passed below McGuire's P-38 before either pilot could react. Meanwhile, Sergeant Mixunori Fukuda, piloting a Ki-84 Frank, was attempting to land and noticed his comrade's plight. Sugimoto fired into Thropp's aircraft, destroying one of the turbo-chargers. The Lieutenant's first thought was to drop his belly tank, but McGuire anticipated his intention and ordered his pilots to refrain from doing this. It is assumed he issued this order to avoid an early return to Leyte, thereby scrubbing the mission.

     Rittmayer, meanwhile, had rejoined the flight and maneuvered his malfunctioning fighter to an advantageous position. He fired into Sugimoto's Oscar, frightening the Warrant Officer off Thropp's tail, but the enemy pilot didn't flee as anticipated. Instead, he turned his fighter tightly and fired several long bursts into Weaver's P-38. Weaver summoned McGuire's assistance.

     McGuire's response was immediate as he turned sharply to the left, but something went wrong as his Lightning shuddered and threatened to stall. He sharply increased his turn in an attempt to get a shot at the enemy fighter, but his plane lost momentum and snap-rolled to the left. It was last seen in an inverted position with the nose down about 30-degrees.

     Weaver momentarily lost sight of McGuire's fighter, but a second later witnessed an explosion. Sugimoto broke off his attack against Weaver just before McGuire's plane crashed. Rittmayer and Thropp pursued the damaged Oscar as it climbed to the north, and the young Lieutenant managed to deliver one last burst into Sugimoto's aircraft before it crash-landed in the jungle. He died shortly thereafter from six bullet wounds to the chest. Now Sergeant Fukuda arrived on scene and charged head-on at Thropp's P-38, but Weaver recovered from his ordeal in time to fire at the Frank.  Rittmayer turned his aircraft to assist, but Fukuda caught the Major in a vulnerable position and fired a burst into his aircraft. The bullets struck the P-38 with telling effect, and it exploded outside the village of Pinanamaan. McGuire had crashed near this area a few minutes earlier.

     Thropp's aircraft bellowed smoke from its engine, while Fukuda tried to advance on Weaver. When this failed, Fukuda chased Thropp and discharged a burst from his guns, but the lieutenant escaped to the relative safety of a cloudbank. Weaver sought to locate the Frank, but could not; he and Thropp returned to Dulag about ten minutes apart. They gave their combat reports, which disagreed on several points; and it wasn't until after the war that it became known that two, not just one, Jap planes were involved.

     It can be said that McGuire was never shot down by enemy fire, only a split second violation of his rules for combat resulted in his death. Some critics have maintained that McGuire's order to keep the tanks was greedy and foolish; supposedly he wanted to score a 'quick kill' on the lone Japanese plane.
     
    Charles Martin, McGuire's biographer makes a persuasive case for other motivations. McGuire almost certainly ordered his flight to keep their drop tanks so that they could complete their mission. There's not much question that McGuire wanted the three extra kills he needed to surpass Bong's record. But it seems unlikely that he would have been foolish enough to violate his own rules of combat in pursuit of that goal. Far more likely he thought the single Jap fighter would pass by his four Lightnings, and then he could go about his mission.





     
     






Ack-Ack
479th FG - Riddle's Raiders

Source of article

Offline Vector

  • Nickel Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 534
What really killed Major Thomas B. McGuire
« Reply #7 on: March 01, 2002, 02:11:53 PM »
Hmmh, so they all were veterans.. I could swear I read somewhere that they were rookies, could be that I mixed it up to some other storie.

Offline BigCrate

  • Copper Member
  • **
  • Posts: 268
What really killed Major Thomas B. McGuire
« Reply #8 on: March 01, 2002, 02:52:56 PM »
Read my posts "Turning in a 38" before you read this or yall won't understand what I'm talking about. This article is from the same Airpower issue.

There was a exception to this characteristic gentle mushing in a turn. I don't know how many pilots have experienced it, but I have in the P-38G with TWO 160 GALLON auxiliary tanks installed
on the wing center sections.

I'd gone on a flight in one of our P-38s and had flown approximately two hours using gas from the auxiliary tanks. On the way back to the field, two pilots from my flight, flying P-39s tried to pull a surprise bouce of me. After surviving over two years of combat, I naturally saw them coming down on me and broke into them at the proper time, ruining their timing. Then, we turned into each other, meeting headon for the practice combat, but didn't drop the auxiliaries. This was just for fun.

I pulled into a tight vertical turn, then after about half a circle, I felt the 38 stall and begin to mush outward and down. Relaxing the back pressure, I expected the 38 to pick up the turn again. It didn't. Still in an almost vertical bank the elevators became unresponisve and I continued to mush outward and down. Cranking the wheel over, the ailerons took effect and lessened the angle of bank. As soon as the angle of bank changed a few degrees, the elevators took over again and I regained control. It had  only stayed unresponisve a few seconds, but in thos few seconds I had lost nearly 500 feet of altitude.

I believe what happened is this - the G forces on the partially
empty tank, forced the gas to the rear of the auxiliary tanks, through the baffles, putting a slight aft center of gravity on the airplane. This caused a slight change in the plane's attitude. The airflow burbled around the tanks and over the wing, blanking out the airflow across the elevators and resulting in a loss of control.
This would probably only happen at a fairly low speed and in a steep turn.

This is my theory only, but there was no mistaking the experience and the sudden loss of altitude. If this had happened at low altitude the aircraft would have mushed into the ground with no way of to stop it, and the results would have been fatal.

I believe this is what happened to Major Thomas B. McGuire over Cebu island on January 7, 1945. McGuire, with 38 confirmed kills, was the second ranking American ace in WW11. At the time his death, he has flown over 240 combat missions and had been in combat for a long time.

This could have happen is drop tanks were near empty and he was at low alts and pulling high Gs. Just some more to chew on :)

Cw
=Twin Engined Devils=

Offline Hristo

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1150
What really killed Major Thomas B. McGuire
« Reply #9 on: March 01, 2002, 04:35:50 PM »
would it be a bad time to say ....

Bring the KI-84 to Aces High :)

Offline ra

  • Parolee
  • Gold Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 3569
What really killed Major Thomas B. McGuire
« Reply #10 on: March 01, 2002, 04:42:56 PM »
I think McGuire was fighting Ki-43's.

Offline Hristo

  • Parolee
  • Silver Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 1150
What really killed Major Thomas B. McGuire
« Reply #11 on: March 01, 2002, 05:13:45 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by ra
I think McGuire was fighting Ki-43's.


Not reading the above posts, are we ? ;)

Offline Wotan

  • Platinum Member
  • ******
  • Posts: 7201
What really killed Major Thomas B. McGuire
« Reply #12 on: March 01, 2002, 06:01:17 PM »
theres "speculation" that there were 2 planes. There was a post awhile back in the o'club about this.

I think it was agreed there was 1 ki-84 mis-indentified as a ki-43.

However this story gets told 50 different depending on who you read. I've heard 1 ki-43 that actual got hits on Mcguire to 2 x ki-43 to 1 ki-43 and 1 ki-84 to 2 x ki-84s.


I think the o'club post was by F4UDOA or maybe even widewing.

Do a search its a few months old.

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
What really killed Major Thomas B. McGuire
« Reply #13 on: March 01, 2002, 06:44:12 PM »
Thomas B. McGuire, Jr.
His Last Mission
431ST FIGHTER SQUADRON
475TH FIGHTER GROUP
APO 72
 
9 January 1945
 
INDIVIDUAL COMBAT REPORT OF CAPTAIN EDWARD R. WEAVER
 

A. Mission #1-668; 7 January 1945; 431st Ftr Sq; 4 P-38s.

B. Fighter Sweep to Negros Island  

C. Time of attack: 0708/I.

Altitude: 1,400 feet

D. At 0620/I, 7 January 1945, I took off as #2 man in a flight led by Major McGuire, of 4 P-38s of the 431st Fighter Squadron. We climbed on course for Fabrica Airdrome on Negros Island leveling off at 10,000 feet. West of Leyte, cloud coverage became 10/10ths at 6,000 feet and remained so to the target area. Over Negros we descended through several layers of stratus clouds breaking out below the overcast at 1,700 feet, 10 miles NE of Fabrica Strip.

We proceeded to that strip arriving at 0700/I and circled it at 1,400 feet for about five minutes. Major McGuire then set course at this attitude for the strips on the western coast of Negros. At about 10/15 miles west of Fabrica I saw a Zeke '52' coming directly towards us at 500 feet below and 1,000 yards ahead. By the time I radioed this information, the leader had seen the enemy, he was directly underneath us. Major McGuire, followed by his flight, made a diving turn to the left for an attack. The Zeke immediately dived to the left also and came around on the tail of #3 man, Lt. Thropp, who had previously been instructed by his element leader, Major Rittmayer, to change positions with him. The enemy was on the inside of this very tight turn at 300 feet and fired at Lt. Thropp. I radioed that the Zeke was directly behind us, and Major Rittmayer, in #4 position, fired a burst sufficient to make the enemy turn even more tightly and lose Lt. Thropp. That put the Zeke in range and inside of me, in #2 position. I radioed major McGuire that I was being attacked and increased my turn, diving slightly. The enemy stayed with me, but I was now inside and a little below my leader. At this time Major McGuire, attempting to get a shot at my attacker, increased his turn tremendously. His plane snap-rolled to the left and stopped in an inverted position with the nose down about 30°. Because of the attitude of my plane, I then lost sight of him momentarily. A second later I saw the explosion and fire of his crash. The Zeke broke off his attack just before Major McGuire's crash, and climbed to the North. It is my opinion that the enemy did not at any time change his attack from me to my leader. I believe his crash was caused by his violent attempt to thwart my attacker, although it is possible that the Major was hit by ground fire, which had now begun.

When the Zeke broke away to the North, I also turned in that direction and joined the remainder of the flight as #3 man. We all chased the enemy and Lt. Thropp, in #1 position, got in a burst just as the Zeke climbed into the overcast. A second later, as we turned to the South, the Zeke reappeared to the East and headed toward us. It got a burst at Lt. Thropp from 1000 o'clock high and I saw a slight amount of smoke come from Lt. Thropp's left engine. Pulling up my nose, I got a short burst from 30° below. Then I followed Major Rittmayer, the #2 man, in a 180° turn to the right to pursue the Zeke, who swung around and again attacked from 1000 o'clock high as we jettisoned our auxiliary fuel tanks. I saw hits on Major Rittmayer and again pulled up my nose turning to the right for a burst from 30° below. The Zeke, also being closed on by Lt. Thropp who was now above, behind and to the left of me, made a diving turn to the right from him and headed North. Lt. Thropp had continued his turn and started home with a bad left engine. The Zeke swung on his tail and fired just as Lt. Thropp entered the overcast. I was too far out of range to fire as the Zeke also climbed into the overcast, breaking off toward the South. I circled the bottom of the overcast for approximately three minutes waiting for the enemy to show himself again. Thinking that he might be above, I climbed through the overcast and looked for him there for a few minutes. Lt. Thropp radioed that he was all right and on his way home. I then gave up the hunt and set course for my base at 0715/I, landing at 0805/I.
 
EDWIN R. WEAVER
Captain, Air Corps
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Toad

  • Plutonium Member
  • *******
  • Posts: 18415
Another Version
« Reply #14 on: March 01, 2002, 06:52:06 PM »
WHAT REALLY HAPPENED

"He did not type up or sign any individual combat report.  The combat report with his name on it was made up by someone else.  

He later saw Weaver's combat report and was surprised to see so much detail in it.  He also can not corroborate what Weaver says he was doing after the first engagement with the bogie."

Ah, the controversy and the mists of time.  ;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!