Author Topic: Is Axis prepared to be wiped from face of earth? (Read 2181 times)

Nefarious · « **on:** March 08, 2002, 07:24:17 PM »

We've been whooping major bellybutton all over your little green planes!

And just a point to say, I didnt see a 412th AAR here yet but last frame 412th found about 12-14 zekes at low level and the meatballs were splodin' all over!!

If I remember correctly we claimed 12-14 zekes for the loss of two P-38's??

~~Great Job Fellas!~~

aknimitz · « **Reply #1 on:** March 09, 2002, 12:57:45 AM »

Nef, imho, Pretty poor taste to come here bragging about killing an enemy that was so badly outnumbered for the entire TOD. In this last frame, we were outnumbered 2 to 1. On average, we had 25 pilots per frame less than the allies.

So ... forgive me for not giving you the WTG you so desparately desire ...

Nim

Kratzer · « **Reply #2 on:** March 09, 2002, 01:17:47 AM »

Why were the numbers so bad? Did people stop showing up from the Axis squads?

Sancho · « **Reply #3 on:** March 09, 2002, 01:21:41 AM »

PTO TODs always suck for the Japanese. AH doesn't have a very competitive planeset for the Japanese yet and nobody ever wants to fly for the Japs. 56th FG would have flown Japanese this TOD to improve the Japs odds, but P-47s were available in frame 1 and 2 and we hadn't flown the jug in a few tours. The last frame we didn't even see any enemy aircraft, but there were plenty of blue planes flying around--way too many in fact.

Raubvogel · « **Reply #4 on:** March 09, 2002, 04:02:10 AM »

We have flown Axis every TOD and decide we'd like a break this time.

On a side note, it is the Axis squads fault if they are outnumbered. The numbers you report as the amount of pilot you are going to have present is the numbers that the CMs use to distribute the squads equally. So...if you're reporting 10 but only bringing 4, you're going to be outnumbered.

AKcurly · « **Reply #5 on:** March 09, 2002, 05:28:35 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Raubvogel
On a side note, it is the Axis squads fault if they are outnumbered. The numbers you report as the amount of pilot you are going to have present is the numbers that the CMs use to distribute the squads equally. So...if you're reporting 10 but only bringing 4, you're going to be outnumbered.

Raub, you say that like there are Axis squads. Clearly, that's not the case since you and your mates are flying Allied. To be sure, there are squads that prefer one or the other, but most of us try to make TOD a success and if that means flying something we don't ordinarily fly, we do it.

Raub, I'll bet ya something. If the allies and axis switched sides, within one frame, axis numbers would be declining. Think we should chime in with "Well, Raub, you should accurately report your numbers?"

Guys, it's the planeset. Many of the squads that normally fly LW iron became lovers of Allied iron when faced with the spectre of flying zekes and KIs against p38s, F6Fs and F4Us.

The worst part of it is that the KIs/N1Ks can compete against the P38s/F6Fs/F4Us if numbers are approximately equal.

I'm not sure of the solution, but I do know it isn't enjoyable flying against overwhelming numbers.

curly

aknimitz · « **Reply #6 on:** March 09, 2002, 06:36:28 AM »

Kratzer - no so much failing to show. There were primarily two factors that contributed to the ridiculous odds. First, many of the Axis squads failed to field the number of pilots they signed up for. Second, many of the allied squads were WELL over what they signed up for.

Sancho, hey man, no problemo at all. I dont fault you guys in any was for this. I fault two things: One, the Allied squads that CONTINUED to fill well above their registered number even AFTER seeing the effects. And two, the Axis squads that failed to fkill their registered numbers.

Raub, thats just a terrible thing to say my friend. And I agree with you obviously that some of the axis squads did fail to field the number of pilots they assigned up for ... and that this created huge problems. But what does that have to do with the odds in fact being ridiculous, and then some idjit coming in here and bragging about superior planes with superior alt killing an inferior enemy? What the hell did he expect?

I'm not sure what the answer is, but I think a definite starting point would be this: If you squad signs up for 10 pilots, then by god bring 10 pilots. Not 11, not 14 - 10. How the hell are we supposed to figure out how to match up squads when a squad that registers for 4-7 shows up with 10-14? Last night the AK's (single squad) ran into two squads (13th TAS and 412). We were 15 strong, and must have flow into at least 20 pilots with superior alt and superior planes. Those two squads were 4-7 pilot squads, but obviously a good bit more than that showed up - to our demise.

Oh well. We [CMs] will figure something out to fix this. These events have to be fun for everyone, or they will not be successful.

Nim

~Pyroman~ · « **Reply #7 on:** March 09, 2002, 07:08:52 AM »

Yeah I agree Nim people shouldn't smack talk. I'm not going to go into detail but they just shouldn't. As you said it shows poor taste

.

Whoever those zekes were we rank into near C25 Kudos to you guys you were outnumbered 3-1 and you made one hell of a fight!

I ~~you. Great effort Axis you have my respect.~~

sax · « **Reply #8 on:** March 09, 2002, 07:50:18 AM »

Great job axis and allies.

TOD rocks because of the quality of players from both sides:)

Wotan · « **Reply #9 on:** March 09, 2002, 07:54:08 AM »

My guys flew as axis for every tour till this 1.

I was axis co several times I dont remember ever seeing all the axis squads meet their committed numbers.

I remember on the Euro map expecting near 25 -30 fer a cap on Nothern Europe and 9 showed up.

or the last tod I was in prior to this one........

in the stalingrad map where the axis co had assigned us cap with another squad. He expected numbers in the 20s......

Only 1 guy from the other squad showed and left us with 10. We were hit by 2 waves of il2s and a toejame load of la5s and yaks.

I certainly dont think bragging about beating someone when going in its pretty much guarranteed what the out come will be.

Had the axis won though with there inferior position I would have expected a lot of braggin...........

skernsk · « **Reply #10 on:** March 09, 2002, 08:23:33 AM »

The numbers are a big headache for us CM's.

Nifty had the sides divided as evenly as possible and it was looking good at the start.

There were several sqads who had fewer than their registered number, but more than 66% attendance so there's nothing we can say about that.

There was a few squads who had more than their registered number and unfortunately flew allied and further skewed the numbers.

If you are a squad who is going over 100% regularily theh you should be upping the number of registered pilots.

ghostdancer · « **Reply #11 on:** March 09, 2002, 08:40:58 AM »

Well there has definitely been a problem this TOD when it comes to turn out among both sides. In frame 1 the Allies had a 20+ plane advantage. In frame 3 (last night) I think it might have been close to a 30+ plane advantage.

And it does seem that some Axis squads had a low turn out while some allied squads had over the 120% turnout they are allowed by the rules.

First thing I would do is go back and look at the roster of all the squads for all the TODs to figure out what type of numbers squads fill on the average, the max number they have ever fielded, and the lowest number they have ever fielded. I think this statistical information might be better for figuring out what numbers they will field instead of the "commitment" number they use.

Second in PTO scenario I agree that the Ki-61 and N1K2 can definitely hold their own against the American Iron. The A6M5b is out classes though. Since we do not have P39s, P40s, and F4Fs to use against the Japanese I would suggest that future scenarios take this into account and put the American fleets in range of several land bases which can field the more advanced Japanese planes.

Last night one of our fleets was in range of A7 and we were worried about a N1K2 and JU88 attack (don't know if it happened) but I don't think the IJN had the numbers to really launch a strong strike from there.

The scenario was good to my mind but possibly with this experience now we could look to readjusting ship positions to maybe give the IJN a better option of getting the Ki-61s and N1K2s to their fleet to protect it. Such a readjustment could help them counter act the problem of lower turnout than the allies and let their CiCs have the option of putting up some of their better planes. This is just an off the cuff remark and not a criticism of the scenario design but some thoughts on how maybe to adjust it.

But we definitely got to do something to make it more appealing for guys to fly IJN. Possible some tweaking of the setup (repositioning fleets) and make more land bases have advance IJN fighters would help.

Truthfully I think last night was a combination of things that went wrong for the IJN.

[list=1]

Low IJN pilot turnout
Some allied squads going over 120% turnout
Fleet positioning might have played a factor making it difficult for the IJN to protect their fleet with anything more that A6M5bs.
Orders problems. I understand from the BBS that the IJN only got their orders on Friday and had a hard time replacing their assigned CiC. I am sure this also was a factor for last night.

Another thought that came to mind is maybe to widen the containment area for the IJN CVs from 4 sectors to 6 sectors. I know in frame 1 it took the Nightmares VMF-101 1 hour to find the IJN fleet because it had strayed out of the 4 sector containment area. Widening the sectors it was in will force the allies to scout more and spread out their forces more.

Why this is important is because basically when a flight of 20 Hellcats come screaming in and don't want to engage but instead want to dive bomb there is not a lot that the slower A6M5bs can do to stop such a large scale attack. A wider area to search might break up these massive F6F-5s attacks and give the Zekes a little better chance with defending against them.

AKIron · « **Reply #12 on:** March 09, 2002, 10:00:59 AM »

Quote

Originally posted by Raubvogel
We have flown Axis every TOD and decide we'd like a break this time.

On a side note, it is the Axis squads fault if they are outnumbered. The numbers you report as the amount of pilot you are going to have present is the numbers that the CMs use to distribute the squads equally. So...if you're reporting 10 but only bringing 4, you're going to be outnumbered.

Your posts implies that Axis didn't have the numbers expected. How do you know that the allies didn't have more than were signed up? If you don't in fact know this then you shouldn't be so quick to assign fault.

Dinger · « **Reply #13 on:** March 09, 2002, 10:12:47 AM »

Dang wotan, I was surprised you didn't take the opportunity to brag about when we flew IJA in Mindanao in the september TOD. Ahhh, yes, we really gave them a hiding.

Zekes are fun but again, no match against any of the amurrican planes available.
In multiframe scenarios, morale plays a factor. The initial frame didn't have a great balance, and the japanese got their butts kicked. Frame 2 saw a similar butt-kicking. I'm betting many people found something else to do rather than show up for round three.

Kratzer · « **Reply #14 on:** March 09, 2002, 10:48:38 AM »

I don't think Raub was referring to 'Axis' squads as in the sense you think he was - I think he was just referring to the squads that are on the axis side for this TOD.

I DO think that even if things aren't going so well, people need to remember that they have made a commitment to the event and show up - the shoe will be (and has been) on the other foot next time around. Lord knows I've been on the receiving end of the big stick flying axis in the past on several occasions.

It does suck to get your bellybutton handed to you, but it isn't the fault of the winning team that sides were unbalanced, and while I don't see much point in gloating in this situation, I think it isn't wrong for the allies to feel good about winning. Our squad had 5 pilots (below our usual), and we only ever encountered 4 enemy planes - and that isn't much of an unfair fight.

If stricter roster caps are in order, I have no problem supporting that - it will hopefully alleviate some of these issues.

S! - you put up a good fight with what you had.