190 Dora vs those darn Tempies

[Kweassa]

.. ok, here's the situation I encountered.

 In a H2H game. Found a Temp low, latched onto it.

* Temp altitude was deck alt( under 3000 ft)
* I was much higher
* Temp speed was high, and I dove onto him.
 (dove down and reached about 410 mph with the Temp about 4.0k in
  front of me)
* The Temp just runs. (how typical!)
* The H2H game had walls, so it was pretty sure the Tempy can't run
   forever.

 Now, the evasive/reversal Tempy pilot used was a just simple multiple loops. Our E state was about simular, since I chased onto him and the distance was closing very slowly after it reached about 1.5 - 1.7.. The Tempy pulled into a loop in the presenceof a wall.

 The problem started here. Tempys, do they really turn that darn good? For a plane that does over 400mph, it turns really really good. The Tempy pulled loops, and I find that with current speed, the Dora can't get a visible lead shot at the Tempy at the top of the loop unless it's a total blind lead. The turning circle on the loop was so tighter than the Dora can follow, that after the first loop, following the second loop almost always causes a head-on.

 Damn simple multiple loops maneuver, the sort only newbies would do... and I can't get a solution to solving this situation(unless relying on a blind lead shot.. ). Now, If I were fighting in another plane, against also another plane, in this situation if I figure out I can't get an effective shot angle at the target at the top of the loop, I'd just idly pretend to follow the loop , and zoom up . The tighter the guy turns in a loop, the more speed he loses, the less downward curve there is for re-acceleration of the plane, and he probably wouldn't have enough E to immediately nose up after the downward sequence of the loop and follow my zoom. He'd have to level out for sometime and accelerate until he tries to zoom, and by then I'd be about 3.0 in front/above of him high 12 oc. high.

 But following a Tempy near co-E at deck in a 190D-9...I find that If I follow the loop, I end up in a 50-50(actually, with 4 Hispanos.. its less than 50-50) situation Head On in about the second, third loop(all the guy does is just loop loop loop..). Pull gently and climb as the Tempy pulls loop.. and The Tempy, after a super tight loop like that, still has enough juice in acceleration to immediately nose up after the first loop and follow the zoom sequence. It almost feels like fighting a zero that does 400mph+ with superior acceleration and guns.

 Rolling my brains a lot but can't get to figure out how to counter this.. the only answer I got so far in 190D-9s is in the first place, engage a low alt Tempy only if you have superior E advantage and you dive down to him within moments. Dive down to him, give a long chase, and no matter how you are behind him, all he does is a simple loop which I can't counter, and I can't escape from. (Geez, I've overshot him in tight situations in super low speed rolling scissors time after time(he falls for it time after time too )  .. and still the Tempy just noses up and goes into a about 700-800 yard zoom.. something I can't follow. Can you believe that? Overshot in a low alt rolling scissors... an E draining death spiral where one guy makes a mistake and it becomes immediately fatal... and he gets overshot and still just noses up.. holy crud Tempests)

 I actually think things would have been easier if I met this situ. in an A5.. I've practiced A5 for some time now.. and feel pretty confident in it. But in situations like this.. can't seem to figure out what I can do with a D-9.

 ...

 What do you suggest?

(Except blowing the Tempy out in a non-visible blind lead shot at the beginning of the first loop..? )

[aknimitz]

OK, how about something like this.  When the Temp goes into the first loop, you said the Dora couldnt go vertical because the Temp would have enough acceleration and power to put thos 4 hispanos on target.  So, dont go vertical.  Suck all the E out of the Temp before you do.  This is what I mean ....

You are chasing the Temp, he goes up for a loop.  Go ahead and try to follow to take a lead shot.  If its not there, dont extend in the vertical, extend in the horizontal, keeping up your speed.  When the Temp comes out of his loop, he will have a little juice to give chase sure, but you will have a lot more.  Make him spend the little he has hoping he can climb up to you as you extend above him ... then as you see his E dropping off, pull up into the vertical and come down on the E-less Temp.

Would that work?

Nim

[Lephturn]

Well in the scenario you gave, I'm having trouble seeing how you get nose to nose at all.  If I follow him in a loop, it's a tail chase.  How do you get from that to a nose to nose radius battle?  It depends on range of course... but if I can get close enough in this situation I'm going to sit on his tail in lag pursuit and save my extra E and position for a shot.  If he pulls hard he'll have a tighter radius, but a lower turn rate, so as long as I'm chasing his tail I can use lag pursuit to maintain more E and stay in his rear quarter even though his radius is smaller.  The problem comes when he can reverse and get nose-on me making it a head-on merge, because I'm not close enough to use lag pursuit.  If that's the case I simply set up a classic merge where I try to lead turn him in the vertical as much as possible instead of going for the shot.  If I'm  faster because he immel'd and I didn't, I may chop throttle to slow down and decrease my turn radius at the merge if I'm too fast for max turn performance.  At this point he has to go up or down really.  If he goes up I should have positioned myself for a shot  since he should be low on E and not turning too well where I should be at my best instantaneous turn rate sliding down to corner speed as I break into him.  If he went down and continued his loop I can either roll back the other way and enter a vertical scissors, or I can continue my hard break and start playing the turn rate/lag pursuit tail chase game, camping on his six and saving my E for the shot opportunity.

Also, remember that high speed = poor turn radius.  That means that if you are in a nose to nose turning fight that will end in a front quarter shot, the guy with the tighter turn radius wins.... so slow down and get your turn radius down if you are too fast (if you black out before you hear the stall horn basically... test it in your ride and KNOW what that speed is because it's your best initial turn radius normally and also very high on the turn rate scale).  It seems that the Tempest is bleeding E faster and hence turning in a tighter radius than the D9.  It's also got a good enough engine to still do well in the vertical and even sustained turns based on it's spectacular acceleration.  Also you will die trying to out-zoom a Tempest... there is a reason it's a perk you know!  It's a VERY powerful plane, so trying to rope-a-dope one is a dangerous business for which you'll need a larger E advantage than you would have in the scenario you describe.