Feedback on new CT set up idea please

[Lephturn]

Hmmm, I like your idea more now that you've explained it.  There is a lot of work involved there though, and I don't see HTC as being ready or able to do it as you suggest.  That leaves the players and the CT crew to handle it.

Still, a regular (dare I say it) "Scenario Lite" a couple times a week in the CT would rock.  Those SL's were some of the most fun I ever had back in WB days.  I think that idea has some legs as they say.  Possibly the CT team could provide some info on maps we can use and what settings we have, then invite folks to submit SL designs.  I think you have to try and keep it as simple as possible, because to be honest you just can't get the level of organization you have in a full scenario, it's too much work to do IMO.  I think you have to go with something like an SL that doesn't require registration but has a semi-formal organized setup like a scenario.

CRASH, I think you have some good ideas there, and I'm sure the CT crew will be interested in hearing them.  Granted, not all folks on this forum will agree with or understand your suggestion, but I think we need this kind of input.  Thanks for putting the time in to discuss it.

[Sabre]

Crash: My advice is, take the promotion if it's offered.  My dad told me the day I left for basic training (was prior enlisted, then earned my degree and went to OTS), "Don't go seeking greater responsibility unless you feel you're ready for it, but, never turn it down when they offer it to you."

Now, regarding the "suggestion" topic, you and Lephturn's verbal sparing has highlighted the difficult line we've been trying to walk in running the CT.  Almost everyone has their own ideas on what would be "the perfect" venue. "Enable base capture, and I'll fly in the CT." "Get rid of base capture, that's for the MA, not the CT!"  "Give us histirical matchups, even if it means only a few planes to choose from."  "Just make it Axis and Allies; don't limit my choice of ride."  "Victory conditions are stupid...people just want to fly and fight." "Make it more scenario-like; people want a reason to fly and fight."  Every one of the above are statements make by people in this and other forums.  The opposing arguments are almost always in the same thread.

I remember your suggestion very well Crash, now that Lephturn jogged my memory.  It was a guiding principle of my first CT set up, "Fire in the Sky." It's the reason I always try to include some sort of victory conditions, and often do things like enabling certain aircraft/vehicles at certain fields, or have captured fields with no aircraft available for the capturing sides.  I'm trying to introduce (with varying degrees of success and failure) new dynamics into the on-line play, dynamics such as you'll never see in the MA.  At the same time, I still have to make concessions to those who just want to hop on line whenever the mood strikes them and quickly find a {reasonably} historical fight.  So while your suggestion may not have been implemented in exactly the way you hoped or intended, the attempt was made to move the CT in your direction.  Not every tour, but generally every other one.  Again, we're trying to give everyone something to like in the CT, even if there are other elements they would not have put in themselves.

Hope that helps to understand some of the pressures we work under when considering which suggestions to try to implement.

Respectfully,
Sabre

[CRASH]

I think much of what's mentioned is minutia, it's somewhat important in specific context but taken seperately each item is not very important.  Victory conditions change, whats available where and in what numbers, icon ranges, dar, ect. are all fine tuning instruments but not what draws people.  What draws them is the organization, two sides, broken down into units, fighting a war with clear military objectives, with clear leadership, and something of a plan....thats what draws people like mad into scenarios and what will draw people into the ct and enable the historical enthusiasts to use the ct for what should be its intended purpose, to immerse players into the wwii air war.  While managing all of those other decisions is difficult it doesnt have the impact on attendance of the ideas mentioned above.  Those small items can be changed and fine tuned as we go along or just changed so that everyone gets a chance to fly in the environment they want.  Theres no reason not to have bar dar one frame and none another to give players of varying opinions  what they want.  Theres no need to find the "right" combination as long as the basics I've mentioned are in place.  As players we could pull it off, we need a website for sign ups, we've already got historical terrains made or in the pipeline. We're gonna need someone to assign people to units and volenteers to lead.  We sign up one week, schedule maybe two frames the next week and in the mean time we assign people to units and the leaders come up with a plan, doesnt have to be elaborate, doesnt really matter who wins as long as it gets people in the action.  Should probably have 2 lives per frame I would think or at least make it so that as long as you get back on the ground without dieing you can still re-up, the idea being to keep the action going but still somewhat realistic.  One of the keys will be to get everyone organized and up as quickly as possible.  As walk-Ons show up we group'em together, give'em a mission and a frequency, tell'em who the co is and send'em on their way, this way you dont alienate everyone that shows up after takeoff.  Keep it simple, give players a mission and buddies to fly with, an organizational framework to support them, get'em into the action quickly and thats your recipe for success.  As we (or you ) get the ball rolling I think that quite a few squads will step up and help with organization, leadership and participants.  To help get the average joe ah drivers attention I'd like to see perk points usable in the ma awarded for participation initially.  I think we need to give people an incentive to try it that otherwise wouldn't.  I dont think it'll be necessary but its always best to stack the deck in your favor when it comes to stuff like this.  We're gonna need a couple people who are willing to spend two hours in the ct once or twice a week to do this and I think htc should provide the support.  I dont think it's fair to ask players to do it.  Like I said I wouldnt mind payin a buck or two more a month for it and its by far the best solution when compared to player driven events.  I dont think its wrong to ask for more than just "yeah, ok, we'll change a setting for ya" from them in this regard.

[Steven]

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Use the mission planner in the game if you want organized missions.  Also, if you want the CT to be only for "pre-planned" "signed up for" missions, what are you going to use the arena for the other 99.99% of the time?

My life does not revolve around Aces High, but rather, Aces High revolves around my life.  If it's 9:07 p.m. and I have every task I need done with home and family, I'll jump into Aces High for some fun and for as much time as I can spare.  And I'll normally choose the CT for the plain reason that it seems wrong for my F4U-1 to be fighting LA7s and 109s like it would be fighting in the MA.  I like historically pitted adversaries as opposed to the smorgesborg of destruction in the MA.  I jump into the game for fun, not to pretend I'm a little fighter ace General in a real war.  

Prove us wrong.  Start making missions in the mission planner or get your web site going with the description of your missions so we can sign up for 'em.   And be sure to be providing the leadership at 3 a.m. Pacific Time when I might happen to want to fight in the CT.  I'm willing to sign-up, but not sure I can always make it or that I should then be locked out of the CT if I do have some free time available when I'm not signed up for anything.

[CRASH]

Sigh....ya see what I'm talkin' about Leph?

CRASH

[Sabre]

Good ideas Crash, and don't get discouraged because someone plays devil's advocate.  This scenario light idea has some possibilities.  My idea was to come up with a set time of day (or times, as we don't want to leave people out just because they don't live in a particular time zone) where there would be set objectives to accomplish.  In otherwords, during the majority of the time, the CT would just be a place to go fight historical matchups.  However, during these specific intervals is when the victory conditions would be monitored.  Maybe that's to capture certain bases, or perhaps to do as much bomb damage to strat targets as possible, or maybe just a war of attrition.

The scenario objectives would be advertised ahead of time, and the "scenario-hour" (hours actually, probably two, but no more than three at a stretch) would be the sametime and day(s).  It would require a minor change to automate the opening and closing of the logs; right now that has to be done manually by a CM.  We'd also probably need one or two more people on the CT staff; one to set up the scenario, and another to check the logs and post the results.

Thinking out loud here, so don't anyone panic:).

Sabre
CT Staff

[Steven]

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Do this in the Special Events arena where it belongs, please.  Don't lock me out of the CT if I'm not signed up ahead of time or if I enter the arena mid-frame or I lose my alotted lives.

I wasn't playing "devil's advocate" as that (to me) insinuates I'm taking a position I don't really believe in.  As a matter of fact, I think the proposed idea is dumb because the whole idea is to bring more people into the arena as opposed to locking them out...which this will do in my opinion at certain times if you aren't signed up or don't show up on time or if you die more than your allotted lives.  I'm not opposed to this type of play and in fact prefer it, but it doesn't belong in the CT because we already have an arena for this specific purpose.  Don't muck up an arena I go to (freely at any time and for a time-frame of my own choosing) for a limited plane-set/Axis-Allies fighting setup type of play which the CT is.  We have TODs, Snapshots and the four-frame events people can join for organized play in their appropriate arena (Special Events.)  Make more organized events for that arena where it belongs if that's the type of play you want.

Well, that's my opinion and do what you want.

[Lephturn]

Steven makes a good point.  Why not use the SEA for Scenario Lite type events?  CRASH, does what your talking about fit into a Scenario Lite type setup in the SEA just as well if not better than the CT?

CRASH, just because folks don't always agree doesn't mean they don't understand.  That doesn't mean your input isn't valuable, IT IS.  You can't expect folks to simply agree with you completely, but you have gotten a lot of discussion started here and lots of good ideas kicking around.  That has a very positive effect I think.  The CT team is listening and discussing your ideas, that's a good start in my book.  We're just discussing the pros and cons of the ideas you put out, and I submit that any ideas should go through a similar process before being implemented.  As Sabre said... you can't please everyone.  However, I think we all appreciate you putting your ideas forward for discussion, I know I do.  It's got me thinking.

[Sabre]

Steven, I think you're reading more into the idea I was describing than is there.  The idea wasn't to lock anyone out, or to limit lives.  It was merely to have a set period or periods during the week where the arena scoring logs would be opened for the purposes of tabulating victory conditions.  The arena would still be a 24/7 arena.  Also, this idea wouldn't necessarily be applicable to every CT set up, either.  The idea was to open up more options for scoring, that's all.

Sabre

[CRASH]

I think some things would be required for it to be successfull:
1.  pre frame sign ups, though all walk-ons welcome throughout the event and walkons would have a choice as to what unit they wanted to fly with.
2.  assigned leaders with assigned unit members and assigned military objectives within a larger plan to win the war
3.  limited lives though could be rather liberal, ie if you survive you can re-up and if you die twice your done or must gun or gv or something like that, an ma free for all without consequences belongs in the ma and it really detracts from the excitement and tension of an arena with consequences.
4.  limited time frame, ie 2 hours, although the war could last for weeks.  Actually, that might be a good idea to have many frames last for several weeks or a month, might help draw more people into the fight.  
5.  Historical matchups and terrain.
6.  Using the sea would further fragment the player base and is exactly the opposite of my intent, ie. populate the ct.  The ct would have more people in it during non scenario play for practice and such.  So Puke, your choices would be keep the arena the way it is, that is to say anemic, or tolerate having to survive for two hours a week all the while gaining the benifits that the above ideas would provide.  
     Your right sabre, you'd need more help during scenario night, your gonna need a guy to handle walk-ons and we're gonna need CC's for squadron or Wing size units to get their people somewhat organized.  Each side will need a CO, primarily to plan though I would imagine that we would have plenty of arm chair generals willing to volenteer.  Its been my experience that even when the CO sucks and the plan is horrible most of the participants have a good time anyway as long as they get into the action and aren't super competitive about winning all the time.  
     Sabre, to my mind it's important not to water down these ideas to the point where everyone seems to agree, leadership by committee as it were.  I think the CT needs to be re-invented to a certain extent and I think that requires the implementation of some bold ideas.  

Originally posted by Sabre
Steven, I think you're reading more into the idea I was describing than is there.  The idea wasn't to lock anyone out, or to limit lives.  It was merely to have a set period or periods during the week where the arena scoring logs would be opened for the purposes of tabulating victory conditions.  The arena would still be a 24/7 arena.  Also, this idea wouldn't necessarily be applicable to every CT set up, either.  The idea was to open up more options for scoring, that's all.
    Sabre

[marcof]

How to make the CT arena a ghost town, read above...