Battle of Britain..

[Kweassa]

1.09 is out.

 Do we count the days now?

[Sabre]

This is my opinion only, and not necessarily representative of the CT Team as a whole (nice disclaimer, eh?).  Our main problem with a BoB set up is the lack of the Ju87 and He111.  I'm concerned that running with what we have, even with the new planes released yesterday, allows such a limited planeset for both sides for a CT set up.  It would certainly be a one-way affair, with the LW having the only true offensive capability in the form of the Ju88 and Me110.  Kind of interesting how the technological advantage swung from the Germans early on to the Allies later in the war.  Imagine a CT set up where it's the Luftwaffe that has the JABO and bomber advantage:).

I think we could do a BoB scenario or snapshot (or even a TOD), because you can limit ordnance loadouts via the rules and tailor the objectives.  I'm not sure we could run a good BoB in the CT, however.  Certainly we'd have to disable base capture by not allowing any troop carriers, otherwise the LW would walk all over the RAF in a free-flowing arena.  Some would argue that no objectives are necessary for the CT; that simply enabling A/C and let people enjoy a pure A2A environment would be enough, and for a segment of the CT crowd.  However, I'm of the strong opinion that the CT has to have more to it than that.  It has to have a reason to fight, beyond the thrill of the fight itself.  Otherwise we're excluding a signficant slice of the customer base.

In any event, I'm not nixing the idea of a BoB CT tour.  We just need to give it some thought on how best to go about it, given the still limited planeset.

Sabre
CT Team

[Oldman731]

Originally posted by Sabre
This is my opinion only, and not necessarily representative of the CT Team as a whole (nice disclaimer, eh?).  Our main problem with a BoB set up is the lack of the Ju87 and He111.  I'm concerned that running with what we have, even with the new planes released yesterday, allows such a limited planeset for both sides for a CT set up.  It would certainly be a one-way affair, with the LW having the only true offensive capability in the form of the Ju88 and Me110.  

*                *                       *

I'm of the strong opinion that the CT has to have more to it than that.  It has to have a reason to fight, beyond the thrill of the fight itself.  Otherwise we're excluding a signficant slice of the customer base.

Then let me be the first to respectfully (very respectfully) disagree.  We now have almost exactly what really occurred in BoB, in terms of plane set.  So the English can't bomb France?  Anyone who insists on flying bombers will simply have to join the Nazi side and fly 88s.  I suggest that CT generally caters to a crowd that IS more interested in the thrill of the fight itself than in the landgrab.

Perhaps more to the point:  It's only for A WEEK!  We already have the map!  Why not invest a week to see?  ESPECIALLY now that the planes are new.

- oldman

[Hortlund]

How about balancing the arena with other methods.

Example, (note, in this example all non historical equipment is already disabled)

Germany
No C47s for Germany (i e no Ju 52s). No German fleets, but lots of shore guns along the french-belgian coastline to keep the allied fleets from roaming free. Only allow M3s and M8s (M8s subbing for early German tanks, M3's subbing for SPW's) to spawn from captured fields. Only allow LVT's at one or two bases in france (around the Calais area)

This forces Germany to do an "invasion" with LVTs to get a foothold in England. It also prevents Germany from roaming free once a base is captured. Enable refueling/rearming at captured fields, but not spawning. That forces any German fighter cover to start in France, fly to any captured field and refuel, before it can be really effective. A brave German player can try to tackle the allied fleets with PT's and Ju88s.

Britain
Give the allies 2 CV task groups, and 4-6 BB groups. Disable pretty much everything except the historical fighters as well as M3's and M8's. Enable Seafires and TBM's (subbing for Fulmars and Swordfish) from the CV's. And PT's.

With this fleet the Brits can slaughter pretty much anything foolish enough to try to cross the channel. It would be extremely foolish of the brits to loiter in the channel area with the fleets though, considering the German coastal guns. A well timed run with the fleet can wreak havoc on any invasion attempt though.

Note that the Brits dont get C47's or LVTs..there will be no invasions in the wrong direction. HOWEVER the M3's allow the Brits to recapture any lost ground in England.

Oh, and once a fleet is lost, it's lost. No new fleets should the brits loose 'em.

What do you guys think?

[Kratzer]

I think that even with just with fighters enabled - 109E, 110C, Spit I, Hurri I you would see more people in the CT than you ever have before.  People have been crying for a BoB for a long time - me included.  It's limited, but who cares - it'd be fun.

[Sabre]

Your point about it only being one week is well taken, Oldman, and I appreciate it.  As I said, I know there are those who just want to fly.  I've made a statement about the MA that I think applies here as well, though.  It is the basis of my strong feeling that, in general, the CT set ups should have some strategic goals to remain viable.  Specifically, I'm of the opinion most air to air fights occur because someone tries to take a base or otherwise accomplish some military objective.  The strat guys may not be the majority (not proven, but let's assume), but they are the catalysts the generate the fights and furballs.  Someone loads up bombs with an eye to taking a base, someone else see the incoming raid and responds.  Others note a fight, and it's rock and roll time:).  Beyond that, one of the most oft-voiced reasons people claimed they didn't fly in the CT before the CT Team was formed was the lack of a goal beyond flying, fighting, and dying.

Having said all that both you and Hortlund make good points.  Perhaps rather than the BoB, we could set up a "Battle for France" set up.  This isn't all that difference tactically than the "Battle for Sicily" we just ran, but with the roles reversed.  Take away C-47's from both sides, with M-8's, M-3's, and M-16's to represent the somewhat less formidable AV's of the period.  The German objective would simply be to drive the British and French forces off the Continent.  The British Isles would be the unassailable redoubt for the British to fall back to, with the Royal Navy providing the means to return to the continent in force.

LVT(2)'s could be enabled for Germany from French ports (perhaps with spawn points a mile off the British coast), and for the British from their naval battle groups.  The only reset condition would be the complete capture of all Allied bases (or all but one, as the case may be).  Otherwise we let it run the full week and simply declare a winner Friday night at 12 PM EST, based on whether the Germans hold all of the bases on the Continent at that time.  An early reset could occur if it is clear that one side or the other has no fight left in it, of course;).

How does this sound?  The only problem would be the lack of any 1939-40 carrier planes for the RN.  My thought here would be to use the TBM as a Swordfish replacement (no more out of place in this time period than the Ju88 model we have) and use Hurricane-I's for the carrier-based fighters.  While the Hurr-I doesn't have a tail hook, pilots can either attempt a landing without it, or simply ditch along side the TG.  After all, in AH there's no rule that says number of takeoffs have to equal number of landings:D.

Sabre
CT Team

P.S. I like the idea of shore batteries but for one problem: the Atlantic Wall didn't exist in 1939-40, and neither did the massive gun implacements protecting the French Coasts on D-day.

[LJK_KämpferAs]

You can always use the Sturmovik as a sub for the Ju87

[keyapaha]

in stead of having land grabbing as a goal why not aircraft attrition wasent that the germans obj was to weaken britians air force. in order to invade at a later date.

   this being said why not enable speicific numbers of planes reletive to what was acrually feilded to each side (dont know if that can be done) when they are lost they are not replaced or maybe replace them in very small numbers (3-5 planes a day for each plane in the set up)


   this would certianly require pilot s to fly in groups and choose there fights carefully  

   as for the bombers they would attempt to bomb all targets in to submission ( very long rebuild times) but would have to be most certianly be  escorted

   this sounds more like a TOD but would be interesting to try it for a week

[Wilbus]

Please don't refer to them as Nazis... please.

[Sabre]

Not an option, Key. Code doesn't give us that capability or authority.   The other suggestion, simply keepiing a tally of bomb-tonnage dropped as a measure of victory, is even more susceptable to "milk-running" than base capture in a 24/7 arena like the CT.  That kind of objective can be used in a TOD or event, but is not practical in the CT.  Nice suggestions though.

Sabre

[NUTTZ]

Sabre, I'm aware that you can't limit planes at a field. But, can't you lengthen the down times, and/or set the fields to uncapturable, ( i believe....I could be wrong, isn't there a setting what team can capture what field?)

NUTTZ

Originally posted by Sabre
Not an option, Key. Code doesn't give us that capability or authority.   The other suggestion, simply keepiing a tally of bomb-tonnage dropped as a measure of victory, is even more susceptable to "milk-running" than base capture in a 24/7 arena like the CT.  That kind of objective can be used in a TOD or event, but is not practical in the CT.  Nice suggestions though.

Sabre

[Karnak]

Sturmovik for a Ju-87.

That's funny.

Shooting a Sturmovik down with a Spit I or Hurri I would be a completely different experience than shooting a Ju-87 down.

.303s just ain't got what it takes.

[Buzzbait]

S!

Hurricane I was used as the Sea Hurricane I.   It was identical except for the tailhook.

Wasn't used in 1940, but was used in early '41.   And land based Hurricane I's actually landed, and took off from British CV's during the Norway campaign.

[Buzzbait]

S!

My suggestion for a BoB CT is as follows:

The Brits have no bombers.   Just Hurris and Spits.

Very long repair time on fields and targets.

Germans basically try to kill all the targets on the board with bombing.  The further they fly from their French bases, the harder it is to escort the bombers, as per history.

If they can kill the Brit fields, then the Britn Fighters have no where to base.

[Wotan]

I think steves (hortlund's) suggestion would work best .........

I hate base capture in the ct but I am a minority................

If I were king I would  max out down time and up the amount of ord to kill hangers etc....... Then make the lw level each base if they close um all down lw.......I dont think it would cater to a lot of folks and fer gameplay it would turn mostly fighter v fighter with few buff formations pushin through........

But in all practicality Steves suggestion would have the largest appeal
please consider it..........