P51's vs FWa5's in SEA; ROE Discussion

[Hristo]

Reasons why I suggested no-icons are following:

Preventing opportunist approach. You do not have the chance to extend 5 miles and come back guns blazing because your flight computer puts HUD marks and range indicators. You have to stay close and personal.

No more shooting at 600-700 yards. Even though you will probably identify the plane IFF, you will not know how much lead you have to pull. Again, get close and personal.

Your flight computer doesn't show you E states and closures anymore. Develop your SA.

You can't just flat outrun enemy watching the range indicator from 652 yards and increasing. You should not see if enemy is closing or not. That would be my bigger complaint about AH realism : I have had P 51D pilots running flat from me, watching the range indicator slowly increasing: ...654...655...656...657. You think that's realistic ?

[Toad]

This program, good as it is, and this technology, improved as it is, isn't currently suitable for "no icons".

To all those things Hristo said..yeah. Now try doing it blindfolded. Cause you just can't see those planes.

[Camel]

Two cool dudes, two great pilots, and what looks like two great leaders!

<S> Hang & Hristo!

The RoE hacking is almost as fun as the fight.

 

[Hazed]

id like to see p51's painted green ...when we find the mangled wreckage of hangs p51 I promise you ill get a brush out and paint it a nice olive drab  

surely fighting over the water is the answer here...cant complain then.

[Hristo]

OK, would JV 44 Dora be visible enough for you ? If so, we should have it by the duel day  

No more "it dissapears into the terrain complaints"  

190's big advantage is that it can roll out of sight. Once you roll to follow it will probably roll again and won't be where you expected it. Putting a neon sign over it will negate this ability. Is that fair ?

One of the most enojoyable fights I had in AH were iconless TA and SEA fights. Hard to explain to those that haven't tried them. Have you tried many vs many fights without icons in AH, Toad ?

In fact, I am ready to say that iconless fights in AH are the closest to the real thing as you can get on a PC.

Just ask Saw, Duckwing, Dingy or Citabria what they think of it.

Another thing:

Allied planes enjoy greater effective ranges of their guns: Hispanos and .50 cals are generally used at greater distances than MG 151/20 and MG 131.

For example, Hispano planes usually open fire at 500+ yards, while Mauser armed ones open at 300+ yards. Similar with .50 cal vs MG 131.

Yes, I know trajectory and so on.

But icons are a major factor here ! Without icons firing ranges are historical ! With icons they are not. As simple as that.

First identify, judge distance and lead, then fire. No more computer doing it all for you.

[Citabria]

use 190a8s they can be seen fine w/o icons

[JENG]

This is the kind of threads I like... some thumping on the chest... some big words... some jokes... all friendly guys who love their ride and love the fight  

Hang... nice to see you take my comments for what they were... just joking words with a little flavour of competition in it   hehehe I know you just love that sleak silver bird of yours   I know where you are coming from... During the non-icon fights in the SEA the pony and fork-tailed-devil where the easiest planes to spot...(I flew the spit...  since in my first mission I was a casualty of friendly fire in my LA5fn... guess it looks a bit to much like a 190  ) On the other hand... with icons on you lose a bit of the thrill of the frantic checking of views after a 6 call on RW  

I've seen some very good compromises to solve this... The best of course is wardogs suggestion (would love to see the mustang mkIII or a nice P51b) altho a bit unrealistic considering the tension and impatience for this duel   (LETS START THIS DUEL!!!)

Maybe the best thing would be to fight it over sea... in that case the 190 would stand out more (altho not so much as the P51   Hey... I'm still a luftwobble  ) It would also give us a chance to use SA more...

Another thing that we should consider... Without icons... I believe wing tactics wouldn't stand out as much... since if you lose your lead... chances are you will never find him again (No big HRISTO or HANGTIME icon above it). (pretty realistic if you read pilots accounts) Hristo is right that it's a whole different ballgame without the icons... alot more tension, alot more frantic screaming over RW (CHECK 6, ACHTUNG!, he's friendly NOOOOO not friendly... BREAK BREAK LOL)

I would like to end this rather boring piece of BeeBabble with an interesting story bout a non-icon fight I had (I've got it on film too  ) I was flying a spit at 10 K and spotted a german plane below me (didn't see it but since it was firing tracer I knew something was down there). I decended... and came real real close for a perfect bounce... then suddenly I see tracers fly by and I break away... It was another 109 on my tail... amasingly it went after the other 109 (must have thought we where a winged pair  ) So I chased after him quickly dispatching him (while he was firing away on his buddy)... I killed him and then got the  other damaged (from friendly fire) 109 too... never laughed so hard  

No matter what you guys decide... I don't mind but make it quick... I WANT TO DO THIS DUEL  

Salute both Allied and Axis pilots who want to do this thing

Bee

[Duckwing6]

Right Hristo  

Icon less flying in SEA was extremely realistic .. for example i made a bounce of a very cose together pair of FWs in a Pony .. scream in from their high 6, open up when my sight is filled by 1/2 FW, kill! The other rolls away and dives... i pull up and look where he went .. and NEVER found him again .. that much about visibility.. it IS very realistic tho  

regarding the ROE.. why don't you guys don't define a combat area, and up from somewhere else, giving each side the chance to fly into the combat area as the please ? Sure it's not a duell merge but hey this is 8 vs. 8 it ain't no duell anyways.. And thinking about it .. there will be alot of confusion after the first clash when a lot of FWs dissapear in the ground clutter so having the alt advantage (if they get it  ) won't help the ponies all THAT much ..

DW6

[jedi]

In REAL planes, within about 2 miles or so, once you've picked him up the first time, you're NOT going to lose sight because of camoflage paint.  Just ain't gonna happen.  Camoflage may help DELAY acquisition at long range, but has almost NO effect on close-in vis.  How's that compare to what you see in a sim on a monitor?  YMMV, but having a plane you're in close combat with "vanish" while still in your FOV isn't very realistic at all.  (Which is not to say that if he manages to get out of your FOV and increase separation enough, you won't lose him).

Iconless fights have plusses and minuses, but they're not necessarily "more realistic."

--jedi


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[Vermillion]

Whats the whole purpose of this??

I.  Is it a "duel" to see who are the better pilots?
II. Or is it the "my plane is (was in the war?) better than yours is?"

If your just dueling to see who is the better pilots then pick mutually agreeable rules and go from there.

But if its the second, the whole thing is a total setup. Its a stacked deck against the P-51's.

First off if your trying to simulate the "war" you either have the Luftwaffe fly the A8, or you don't use dueling rules.

You aren't dueling right? Your trying to prove which is the better aircraft, so why hobble the P-51 with artifical rules that limit its strengths, while playing to the strengths of the A5's.

The Spit IX is a hell of a dueling aircraft, but does that mean that if I had to place my life on the line I would choose the Spit over the P-51? Hell no.

And this don't even mention the ludicrousness of a "no icon" fight, where one side has ridiculously effective camoflague and the other stands out like a sore thumb. Yes your arguement that the icon system is too effective is right, but the "no icon" system is just as wrong, since our graphics don't even come close to conveying the information that you are able to see in real life.

If you want a real comparison of which was the "better plane", use a setup that simulates the real war.

No alt limits, planes setup however they wish and when the referee says "fights on" the two sides meet up in a designated grid square.

With the rules you guys are talking about right now, if I was the Pony driver I would just load up 75% fuel and let the Luftwaffe chase me around at 10,000 ft until they run out of gas. Boring, yes. But its about the only way I see of the P-51's winning this thing with the current rules set.


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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[JENG]

Verm I believe its a duel   You can try to simulate hundreds and hundreds of so called 'realistic enviroment encounters' and you still wont know which plane was the best  

Even if its a sort of simulation(which it's not) why should we be flying the heavy A8 buffhunter... tell me something more silly I mean IRL those guys were escorted by doras or 109's when hunting buffs. Now that's a real fair fight   Lets continue... a5 against pony... mmm 1942 against 1944 plane yeah ... very superior lufwobble plane we have here... If its G10 against Pony then I'm game for your no rules just fight setup...  

As to no-icons... I stated that I dont mind flying with icons (as if thats more realistic... please) just saying (like so many others) that it's fun to do... gives a whole new 'kick' to it. Compromises like fighting over sea (where the 190 stands out too) were suggested... but IMO Icons or no icons dont matter

No pun intended verm... but you should read all threads before comin in and banging all over the place telling everybody how stupid we are... sigh


Bee

[This message has been edited by JENG (edited 07-06-2000).]

[Toad]

 

Originally posted by Hristo:


Have you tried many vs many fights without icons in AH, Toad ?

In fact, I am ready to say that iconless fights in AH are the closest to the real thing as you can get on a PC.

No, Hristo, I didn't. I flew iconless in AH a couple of times. I flew the WB HA quite a bit whenever there was other people in there.

IMHO, AH is presently less capabable of a usable iconless environment than WB was when I played that. In fact, to me, it it SO unlike RL that you won't find me there again until it improves.  

It certainly adds tension and it adds uncertainty and doubt...but mimic RL? Hardly.

While YOU may think this is "realistic", I don't think it's even close. Check Jedi's remarks above..there's another guy that flies for a living. He's absolutely right about camo paint.

This present environment doesn't mimic RL as much as it shows the problems that current technology has in trying to mimic RL.

I just spent the past few days flying around with other WW2 aircraft at an airshow. Because of the airshow rules, I once again could look at other aircraft at exactly KNOWN distances in flight.

So far, I've spent about two years of my life in the air. I spent a lot of that time looking out for other aircraft.

Tell me Hristo, upon what experience do you base your opinion?

[Ripsnort]

Here's my take, JG2 representing LW is 3-0 (not counting Libya scenario, winner ever declared there BTW?) in Scenario's, the few we've had...give them the advantage, they need it.

FW190-A8's would be eaten alive by P51D's, but if that's what they want, lets get it on.

Then, when we're done, we swap planes for Frame 2.    

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Ripsnort(-rip1-)
~GeschwaderKommodore~I./JG2~Richthofen~[/i]
CLICK>> JG2 INFORMATION
Panzer Group Afrika~15th Panzer Division~[/i]

I spare no class or cult or  creed,
My course is endless through the year.
I bow all heads and break all hearts,
All owe homage-I am Fear.
-------------General Patton

[Vermillion]

Bee, I never once said you were stupid.

I just said that Hristo was obviously stacking the deck by setting up the rules to be advantageous to his side.

And then to top it all off, using the old playground tactic of "What are you scared?" to try and shame the other side into accepting the rules you want them too.



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Vermillion
**MOL**, Men of Leisure
"Real Men fly Radials, Nancy Boys fly Spitfires"

[Hristo]

Verm, I am very supportive of no icons squad duels. Try them first and come back with impressions.

As for stacking the deck, you are right. But I'd fly the red-white JV 44 Dora there too, the real match for P 51D.

How about that lil beauty ?