Author Topic: Middle East - DejaVu?  (Read 3103 times)

Offline Toad

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Middle East - DejaVu?
« Reply #90 on: April 03, 2002, 01:49:10 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Nashwan
Toad, the offer Arafat turned down was not as good as claimed.


Well, how good did it have to be to be a better solution than strapping dynamite to the torso of a kid that hasn't even begun to live yet and sending him into a crowded restaurant and having him blow himself up?

Beyond that there's the irrefutable evidence that blowing up Israeli restaurants seems to draw a strong Israeli military reaction rather than an Israeli attempt to negotiate.

IMO, you take the deal, get what you can; then continue to negotiate for what you want.

Either that or strap dynamite to your torso and assure the continuance of the senseless slaughter with NO progress towards your statehood and ultimate goals.
« Last Edit: April 03, 2002, 02:09:14 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Elfenwolf

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« Reply #91 on: April 03, 2002, 01:52:21 PM »
Definately Japan going over and Okinawa coming back via Clark AFB in the Philippines. I remember buying two bottles of Wild Turkey 101 at the duty free liquor store in Okie.

Offline Elfenwolf

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« Reply #92 on: April 03, 2002, 01:58:24 PM »
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Originally posted by Staga


Maybe if U.N peacekeepers and negotiators in middle-east could succeeded better in their task maybe there would be couple buildings more in N.Y ;)


Staga, there is absolutely NO justification for the WTC attacks that I am aware of. Perhaps you can shed some light on this and explain to me exactly why nearly 3,000 people were murdered?

Offline Pongo

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« Reply #93 on: April 03, 2002, 02:02:29 PM »
Good post elfenwood.
This stuff is not easy.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #94 on: April 03, 2002, 02:07:42 PM »
Ah, don't pick on Staga. He's a Finn. :)

When the stuff has truly hit the fan somewhere in the world, when bullets are flying and people are dying, has the cry ever gone up to "Send for the Finns!"

He's just cracking wise from high up in the bleachers... like so many others.
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline easymo

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Middle East - DejaVu?
« Reply #95 on: April 03, 2002, 02:08:20 PM »
"Easymo, I also was shipped off to "our" war on a commercial jet liner, spent a years' tour and was shipped back home... What were your feelings on the plane ride over there as opposed to the plane ride home? On the way over I was scared and aprehensive. On the ride home I was bitter, sad and angry. At no time did I feel proud that my nation was able to transport us on a commercial jet complete with Stewardesses and then bring us home the same way. "


First. I should explain where I came from.  To put things in perspective.

  I had 7 Uncles that were WW2 vets. My dad was a bit famous for his exploits in the Korean war.  When I was a boy. It was common, at family gatherings, to hear these men talk about their wars.

 I was not drafted, I inlisted. And I volunteered for Vietnam. My expectations,and reactions, might be different from someone who had been called up, and was doing his duty.

 My overriding memory of the ride over is boredom.  I also went by way of Alaska. (something about the cerviture of the earth. Still doesn't make any sense.) It was a very Loooong flight.

 Coming back.  Nothing but pure joy, at going back to the world.

  I took being on an airliner for granted.  Never gave it a thought at the time.  The reason I pointed this out, is when the Euro's are busy USA bashing, they always mention our wealth. Like this is a weakness of some kind.  I like to remind them how that wealth might be employed. If, for example, we were to get pissed at some little toad hole like Finland.  We might just erase it from collective memory

Offline Toad

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« Reply #96 on: April 03, 2002, 02:11:58 PM »
Toad hole? Toad hole? FORKING TOAD HOLE????

Leave me out of this!  :D :D :D

I can think of other hole types you could substitue though.  :D
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Vector

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« Reply #97 on: April 03, 2002, 02:31:09 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Staga


Maybe if U.N peacekeepers and negotiators in middle-east could succeeded better in their task maybe there would be couple buildings more in N.Y ;)


Dunno about that, but what I know is that Finnish peace keepers were very much liked in both sides of the conflict in the middle east. Which is very good indication as Finnish ppl are known to be as kindred people of Israeli's, like a relative country. Finnish politicians should have kept more strongly attitude after Finnish mandate ended in Lebanon.
Finally I see the light in the tunnel, Finnish minister stated that Finland must stand up and take more strong position in the middle east peace process. What ever that means I don't know, but I really hope that Finland has still respect in both of the sides eyes.

Toad, what comes to US influence to Palestinians, it's zero and you know it. Palestinians will listen more this little nation called Finland than mighty US and that my friend is tough for you, just try to live with it ;)
What comes to flying bullets, yes I agree with you. Finnish politicians has too careful attitude to conflicts. But don't you dare to think a slighest second that finnish ppl don't get ready when it's time... read the WWII history if you have doubts...

Offline Elfenwolf

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« Reply #98 on: April 03, 2002, 02:39:56 PM »
Easymo, I also had 2 uncles in WW2, one was wounded a week after the Normandy landings, and one Uncle who served in Korea.
I made it "sappy" by saying I was angry coming home because it wasn't until after I got home and started working with a Vets group called Swords to Plowshares in San Francisco that I got pissed off- the ride home was, indeed, a happy occasion, even if they did make me stow my Wild Turkey 101 until we hit Travis.

I took what you said out of context and I apologize for using you as a foil for my political rant.  What you were doing was defending our Nation and that is commendable. Obviously all of us would prefer a peaceful solution to the Middle East situation and most of us are aware of the potential for a regional conflict escalating into WW3.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #99 on: April 03, 2002, 02:43:03 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Vector
... Finnish minister stated that Finland must stand up and take more strong position in the middle east peace process.



Good! I'm all in favor of it. Obviously, the current state of involvement isn't getting anywhere. Adding Finland might help, can' hurt. Good for him!

Quote
Palestinians will listen more this little nation called Finland than mighty US and that my friend is tough for you, just try to live with it ;)


I certainly hope they do. I know they don't listen to us, simply because we actually supported the UN resolution that made Israel a state and because we have acutally supported them over the years.

Finland, of course, has pretty well stayed away from openly and loudly supporting Israel.

I assure you, it's not tough for me! We've done the best we could. I'm glad you folks are finally going to jump in here.


Quote
But don't you dare to think a slighest second that finnish ppl don't get ready when it's time... read the WWII history if you have doubts...


Oh, I know of your WW2 history. Finns can and will fight and fight hard for Finland.  ;)
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!

Offline Vector

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Middle East - DejaVu?
« Reply #100 on: April 03, 2002, 02:59:38 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Toad
Oh, I know of your WW2 history. Finns can and will fight and fight hard for Finland.  ;)

Well, you have a point in there. ;)
I am still counting on Finnish effect on middle east. It's still in their memories, so why to waste this moment? That's what I can't understand.. what are we waiting for?
« Last Edit: April 03, 2002, 03:12:01 PM by Vector »

Offline Staga

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Middle East - DejaVu?
« Reply #101 on: April 03, 2002, 03:09:55 PM »
Toad my friends and co-workers have been in U.N forces in Suez canal, Cyprus, Golan heights and in Lebanon.

My point was there has been U.N forces from around the world in middle-east trying to keep those maniacs away from each other and while doing that risking their own lifes.
What did U.S do in that time? Sold more weapons to Israel.
I'm just wondering if grenades and bullets Israel shot to my co-workers base were made in U.S ?

Offline Vector

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« Reply #102 on: April 03, 2002, 03:32:58 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Staga
What did U.S do in that time? Sold more weapons to Israel.

But they are selling even more weapons to Egypt (which broke off relations to Israel today) than to Israel..? That's interesting thing to remember when considering US relations to middle east. No offence, just stats. Should I ask what is the reason for selling fighters and other weapons to Egypt?

Offline Sikboy

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« Reply #103 on: April 03, 2002, 03:37:48 PM »
Quote
Originally posted by Staga

My point was there has been U.N forces from around the world in middle-east trying to keep those maniacs away from each other and while doing that risking their own lifes.
What did U.S do in that time?


Depends on when exactly you're talking about. Most of the time, we were keeping our active presense at a minimum, in an attempt to prevent direct Soviet involvement. During the early 80's we were being blown up in Lebenon. But I guess those dead marines don't count, since they weren't killed by american made weapons. It's very very very silly to suggests the US has not participated in attempts to settle this dispute. And as Vector said, we shovel money at Egypt, Jordan, Saudi, and Kuwait as well. (although I have no idea about direct military aid to Egypt)

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Me: Meh, whatever.

Offline Toad

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« Reply #104 on: April 03, 2002, 03:48:59 PM »
I know Finns have participated in UN Peacekeeping opeations around the globe. I also know Finland sent no troops to Desert Storm, correct?

Allow me to ask a few questions. Your answers would then allow me to answer those you just posted.

Do you think that Israel has a right to exist as the UN defined it prior to the '48 statehood?

If the answer to that is "yes" do you think that Israel WOULD now exist if the US HAD NOT supported Israel militarily and economically?

If you support Israel's right to exist, what support did Finland offer in '48, '56, '67 and '73 when their survival was in doubt?

Yes, you've sent UN Peacekeepers and they may well have been attacked with weapons made in the US. I don't know.

I do know we generously gave Israel the means to insure its own survival over many past years. Lord knows how much of our stuff they have and how much of our stuff they copied and now make themselves.

Point is we DID give them the means to fight for their survival. I'll readily admit that.

What did Finland do for them during those moments of crisis?

Enlighten me.


« Last Edit: April 03, 2002, 03:54:57 PM by Toad »
If ye love wealth better than liberty, the tranquility of servitude than the animated contest of freedom, go from us in peace. We ask not your counsels or arms. Crouch down and lick the hands which feed you. May your chains sit lightly upon you, and may posterity forget that you were our countrymen!