Sharon and the Israeli Leadership is bringing it all on themselves.

[Dowding]

Sharon's personal vendetta against Arafat makes him the most dangerous man in the middle east today. With him at the reigns, there will never be an end to the circle of violence.

Sharon knew EXACTLY what he was doing when he visited such a controversial site as the Al-Aqsa mosque, the third holiest site in Islam back in 2000. A right wing Israeli politician with his reputation and history (a war criminal according to the EU), he knew it would stir up a storm. And look how he has capitalized on it! From fringe radical to Prime Minister in a couple of years.

The more I read about the bloated bigot, the more I detest him.

[Steven]

Charon,

Thanks.  I'm learning a lot through all these discourses on the boards.  I'll try and read all them words soon.

[Zippatuh]

I’m not sure I can take any side.  I do have a question though.

What would any other county do if bombs where going off in there country every other day or so for the last 18 months?  I’m not sure I totally agree with the actions taken but that doesn’t mean that I can’t understand why they are doing it.

Arafat had the ability to stop this with the creation of Palestinian state, he choose the all or nothing approach.  He’s just as responsible as anyone else.

Basically everyone needs to stop pointing the finger at everyone else and start pointing at themselves.  I keep getting the vision of kindergartners shoving each other saying “he started it!”.

I don’t believe that Sharon or Arafat either one are going to do totally right for their people.  In all actuality I blame Barach (sp).  It was his arrogance that brought the special election that put Sharon in power.  I believe he was making a gamble that people would chose peace with him rather than war with Saron.  The whole purpose of which was to side step an assured loss to Netenyawho (I know that’s spelled wrong).  He’s a bit more militant than Barach but not near to the extent that Sharon is.

My thoughts go out to the Palestinian and Israeli people.  I can only hope that the people that need to be clear headed start doing so soon.

[midnight Target]

This is the 1st time I have actually looked at a map of the West Bank as proposed by the Israelis. Looks like BS to me....no wonder the Palestinians turned it down.

[Staga]

Yep Tah Gut; pretty much same thing like "homelands" in South-Africa when apartheid was still going on there.

"...in the 1970's there were creations of so called black homelands which in theory were independent countries with their own governments. These homelands were set up so that when blacks entered the white designated South Africa, the government could say that they were foreign guests with no political rights. The home lands were still, in effect, under the control of the white regime due to the fact that they could not survive economically without the support of the white South Africa."

Looks like apartheid is still alive in some countries

[easymo]

I read an account of a Palestinian woman throwing pots and jars out the window, at a Palestinian gunman.  She was pissed because he was drawing fire to her home.

  That's pretty much the problem in a nutshell.  Nobody is in charge over there.  There is no one to make peace with. Even if Arafat signed a paper.  Hezbula, and humas would keep right on blowing people up.

  The Israelis put Sheron in charge.  That's about like us making Gen. Patton the prez. Despite the retoric, there are no good guys in this one, on either side.

  Frankly, all I car about is U.S. interest.  That puts us on the side of the Israelis for 3 reasons.  We need to keep our word for a change.  We have a definite interest in seeing that terrorism is not successful.  And the Arab world put us on the "other side". wither we like it or not.

[wsnpr]

Actually I am pro Israeli AND pro Palestinian. I would like to see an end to all this senseless violence.

For you Pro-Sharon supporters out there, I'll ask this again: Name anything that we have done to help the Palestinian people and their country over the years - since 1948?

another terrorist lover  
smile now when they blow up a mall, building, school in your town
 Eagler

Eagler, I am no more a terrorist lover than you are a state-sponsored terrorist lover. I do understand the reasons for each side doing what they're doing. I don't support it though. The Israelis hold all the cards and the power. It is up to them to make the first move towards peace...and keeping it.
Also Eagler, How would you feel of some helicopter gunships and heavy tanks (of which you really have no defense against as you don't have a military) rolling into your neighborhood and destroying your property, mall, school, hospital, etc.? How about their not letting in supplies, food etc.? How about your losing some friends and family? How about not letting you bury your dead? Oh, I get it, you'd be okay with all the civillian casualties (may number in the hundreds if not thousands before this latest operation is over) as you'd consider the loss of your best friend, wife, son, daughter, father, mother, neighbor, and/or fellow country person as just collateral casualties.

If someone is against violence, I don't see how he could be terribly sympathetic to the Palestinians.
oldman

Oldman, the majority of the Palestinians AND the Israelis would love nothing more than to live in peace, in their own homeland, with their own self-determination. The Palestinians have none of the above. They are tired of getting pushed and shoved by the bullying Israeli military machine. You're telling me that you wouldn't be upset if you were in their shoes?

So what college are you attending? Berkely seems quite active these days in anti-semetism.
Ripsnort  

Ripsnort, Please define anti-semitism. How are my statements equating anti-semitism. Is it because I am not goose-stepping in line with you because I see these Israeli military operations as not good for the long term security of an Israeli nation? Creating generations of future terrorists is not my idea of a smart foreign policy. Killing and hatred never brought understanding, compassion, and respect from your opponent/enemy. It only breeds more hatred and a need for revenge.

There will be no peace in the Middle-east untill one side defeats the other and peace can be enforced.
OZkansas  

OZkansas, If one has to use violence and force to 'enforce peace' then there truly cannot be peace. Right now would the world support the complete elimination of an entire people be it Palestinian or Israeli (genocide)? I think not. Punishing the whole for what a fraction do is not justice.

I’m not sure I can take any side. I do have a question though. What would any other county do if bombs where going off in there country every other day or so for the last 18 months? I’m not sure I totally agree with the actions taken but that doesn’t mean that I can’t understand why they are doing it.

Arafat had the ability to stop this with the creation of Palestinian state, he choose the all or nothing approach. He’s just as responsible as anyone else.
Zippatuh

Zippatuh, You mean bombs going off in illegal occupied lands that I took from the peaple bombing me? What would you do?
Arafat has absolutely no control over Hamas, Hezbollah, etc. Past Israeli policies have made Arafat powerless to control the situation. The continued scapegoating of Arafat of being responsible for the suicide bombings by the Pro-Israeli leadership is ludicrous. Perhaps the continued illegal occupation of Palestinian land and the industrialised world at large ignoring the Palestinians might have a large part of desperate Palestinians blowing themselves up while trying to take out their 'enemy'?

I'm going to start another thread on possible solutions for a peaceful Israeli/Palestinian coexistance. It sure would be more constructive than this 20/20 hindsight game we're all playing.
Criticizing, namecalling, and labeling are quite easy. It's coming up with the ideas and solutions that is the hard part.

wSNPR

[Zippatuh]

Yup, that’s right.  Arafat is blameless and has nothing to do with the current situation.  Then why the hell are we talking to him then if he has nothing to do with it and has no control?

Step up to the plate or sit down.  He isn’t doing either.

The argument of still occupying Palestinian land, pre ’67 land, get over it.  They’re not getting it back, it will never be negotiated, so saying they are blowing things up because they think the flag should be different over Tel Aviv is crap.  It’s not going to happen.

The only reasonable argument for occupation can be made with post ’67 land.  Was it right in the first place to move in and plant a flag saying, “Now this is Israel”.  No, but it’s not going to change.  If indeed this is the fight then it will never end even if the “Palestinian” area is made to be recognized as a state.

From the sound of it we may be straddling the same fence.  I’m just not as vocal against Israel as you seem to be.  There is so much mud around both camps that anything that can be said has an immediate response from the other side.

What should have been quoted was the kindergarten remark because that’s exactly what is going on here.  “Oh yeah! Well, he started it!”

Who started it, who is responsible, how it came to be like this, and where the blame should be placed is exactly what is wrong with the whole situation.  Try and correct the situation not find out who the blame should be placed on.

Which leads to the other more constructive thread you started.

[Eagler]

I'd respect the Palestines more if they at least deplored the bombers. I'm talking the leaders as well as the citizens with open protests and SHOUTS for them to stop and allow peace yet another chance. It seems they condone & promote it instead.

Another woman bomber set herself off at an Israeli bus stop

As stated, until this small % of Palestines is put in an unfavorable light from the Palestine majority and the Arabs for that matter. I don't see what other choice Israel has but to continue with their Palestine harrassment.

[wsnpr]

Yup, that’s right. Arafat is blameless and has nothing to do with the current situation. Then why the hell are we talking to him then if he has nothing to do with it and has no control?

Step up to the plate or sit down. He isn’t doing either.

The argument of still occupying Palestinian land, pre ’67 land, get over it. They’re not getting it back, it will never be negotiated, so saying they are blowing things up because they think the flag should be different over Tel Aviv is crap. It’s not going to happen.

The only reasonable argument for occupation can be made with post ’67 land. Was it right in the first place to move in and plant a flag saying, “Now this is Israel”. No, but it’s not going to change. If indeed this is the fight then it will never end even if the “Palestinian” area is made to be recognized as a state.

From the sound of it we may be straddling the same fence. I’m just not as vocal against Israel as you seem to be. There is so much mud around both camps that anything that can be said has an immediate response from the other side.

What should have been quoted was the kindergarten remark because that’s exactly what is going on here. “Oh yeah! Well, he started it!”

Who started it, who is responsible, how it came to be like this, and where the blame should be placed is exactly what is wrong with the whole situation. Try and correct the situation not find out who the blame should be placed on.

Which leads to the other more constructive thread you started.
 Zippatuh

Zippatuh,
We should not only be talking with Arafat, but with the leaders of the other factions as well. We are talking to Arafat as he is the figurehead leader of the Palestianians. Showing respect never hurt a thing, and might just help.
As long as both the Israelis and Palestinians can agree on a common border would work by me. As it is now, the present occupation by Israel is not acceptable.
Only with a full understanding of the issues can a valid and constructive solution be found.
You're right though, childish blaming, namecalling, and insults are not constructive an any situation.
I would think that 90% of us are straddling the same fence.

wSNPR

[wsnpr]

Unfortunetely the suicide bombings continue with at least one of the attacks claimed by Hamas. The reason given being this latest invasion by Israeli Forces. Unfortunate cause and effect.  

[babek-]

Maybe there is help from another side: MONEY.

Sharons war and policy is very expensive. To raise and hold an army and the operations costs a lot of money.
The negative economical effects on the country are great.

Even already the israeli parliament had to reduce some wealth-programs in cause of financing the Sharon-nonsense.

Now they plan to build a wall - a really good idea to waste money even faster.
East Germany has shown how expensive it is to build and maintain such a wall.

So - after they all loose enough money - they maybe will reconsider their policy.

It will be interesting to see when the economic effects will get a new negative record because of the actual policy and how the people there react when the next reducements are made.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by babek-
Now they plan to build a wall - a really good idea to waste money even faster.
East Germany has shown how expensive it is to build and maintain such a wall.

So - after they all loose enough money - they maybe will reconsider their policy.

It will be interesting to see when the economic effects will get a new negative record because of the actual policy and how the people there react when the next reducements are made.

Perhaps the value human life more than money? As for the israeli economy, of cource the war on terrorism puts strains on the economy. That is why the US is sending billions of dollars in aid to Israel, and that is why we all should do our best to buy Israeli merchandice.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by wsnpr
The State sponsored terrorism by Israel under the guise or 'self defence' is no excuse. Sharon and the Israeli leadership are not interested in peace short of a Greater Israel and buffer zone. Period. All Sharon is insuring is the future continued attacks against Israelis by desperate Palestinian people (mainly those who have lost innocent family and friends from Israeli Military attacks, so called collateral casualties) who no longer have hope of self determination. Hatred and killing breeds more hatred and killing. So, who is retaliating against who?

BTW, I am pro-Israeli AND pro-Palestinian.

[/b]

Recognize these two quotes wnspr? I dunno if its just me, but that first quote of yours doesnt seem very pro-Israeli actually...

Hypocrite.

[babek-]

An army in war is very expensive. And the israeli Army is actualy in war.
Its high tech and maintainance also consumes a great amount of the israeli money.

Senseless projects - like the wall - will also take a huge amount of their money.

The war in this region and its instability also reduce foreign investments and destroys infrastructure.

I dont care if a product is made in Israel or in UK - if the israeli product has a better quality than the british I will buy it - but I dont know which quality products actually come from israel which are better than european products .

Israel is highly dependent on US-financial help.

The question is when the costs will reach a point where they cant be paid any longer.
And how the people react when more and more reducements are made in their normal life - like reducements of welfare-projects - to keep up the maintainence of the military moloch.

Actually we have patt in the region. Both sides - the palestines and the israelis have no chance to win in this conflict with military or terroristic actions.
The keep on fighting - the one side using tanks the other suicide-bombers.

On both sides the actual political leaders have failed.

So - I say: Let them go on in their nonsense war. Maybe the money-problem will stop them.