Author Topic: A few Questions About the F6 Hellcat (Read 631 times)

Fowler · « **on:** April 14, 2002, 09:35:51 PM »

Hello
First of all id like to say that i feel the F6 is my plane to fly, i had some initial problems but after working through those i have really come to love to fly this plane.

My first question is about dive bombing. I get to about 10k above the base and i try to turn over the aircraft and keep sight of the target but i find this really difficult to do. Is there a better way to get the bombs on target? I really want to become proficent with the f6 in a Jabo Role so mastering this skill is a must for me.

My second question is about flap use. Sometimes i get into a situation where i have a slow aircraft out in front of me and im setting up a shot and he/she breaks hard and i get into a little turning situation. When and how much flaps should i use with this bird?

And last of all I was wondering if the hellcat has one strenght that stands over another? It seems to be a pretty good plane overall but i was wondering if a vetern cat flying could tell me where this girl really shines?

Thanks again if it were not for you guys i would never have even got off the runway

Fowler...

Chaos68 · « **Reply #1 on:** April 14, 2002, 10:26:14 PM »

she shines while in my crosshairs

hope you stay with AH, we need more Michigan people in here.

2Late4U · « **Reply #2 on:** April 14, 2002, 11:03:13 PM »

When dive bombing I prefer to start no higher than 10k, also dont try and 90° dive to target, 70° is much better. Your enemy here is excess speed, if you have trouble, try starting your actual bomb run at under 7500 (and from a relatively slow speed before the dive). Usually I tend to start out in a 70° dive, aiming in front of the target and pull out a bit, dropping the egg just as the target passes under my nose at 60° or so. You need to be sure an let the bomb travel far enough to arm, so be sure an release at ~1000 feet.

When approaching a slower adversary, I much prefer a high yo-yo to actually slowing down, and then Id prefer a barel roll to flaps also. If however you get into a situation where you are slow, I apply the flaps "as needed" (in other words untill I out turn the guy in front of me). 1-2 notches is all that is recomended, anything more and your going to slow to do anything but die.

There are a few amazing Hellcat Aces out there Akdejavue comes to mind, that can make the thing manuver like a harrier with a bad attitude. As will all planes, getting to know her is the most important. Once you learn the rules, you can learn to break them. I can tell you the Hellcat can do some unbeievable hammerhead stall type manuvers, the trick is being agressive enough to make her flop over, but being quick (and good) enough to recover from the stall/spin before it actually happens.

The Hellcat is a very good all around plane, its not the best at anything. Its not as fast as an F4u or P51, its not as manuverable as a Zeke or Spit, and it doesnt roll as quickly as a Focke Wulfe, but when flown well, it is more than a match for any of the planes in the MA. I fly it like a P47 that can turn a bit.

Steven · « **Reply #3 on:** April 14, 2002, 11:33:17 PM »

<>

Due to instrumentation problems, I thought the Hellcat and Corsair were about the same speed in actuality.

xHaMmeRx · « **Reply #4 on:** April 14, 2002, 11:50:20 PM »

Check out Mathman's F6F Write-Up . I think you'll find most of what you're looking for, including a detailed portion on jabo missions.

HaMmeR
www.netAces.org

Mathman · « **Reply #5 on:** April 15, 2002, 12:35:28 AM »

Flaps are one of those things that you need to practice using. I found that there are situations where I will not use them, others I use them all the time. If the plane is that much slower, it may be wise to extend a bit and reverse back into them. Also, you might try pulling your nose above the horizon, drop a notch or two of flaps, and turn with the con. I have found this to be a good way to drop speed when I have to. The thing is, the F6F accelerates very slowly, so you only want to do this if you are certain that you will nail him and that there is nobody around to come in and nail you low and slow.

As far as secrets to the F6F, the only real one is to learn to manage speed. The F6F is probably one of the best planes in the arena at around 225-275mph. If you can keep your speed around this, you will be turning very well and still have speed to pull a hard break if someone comes dropping in on your 6.

As far as what the F6F does best, there really isn't one thing. It is a jack of all trades, master of none. You can Bnz, TnB, and Jabo in it.

I fly it for two reasons:
1) I can do OK in it as I get more and more practice in it.

2) It is my favorite fighter of WW2

Hope you enjoy it, check either Hammer's site or my site., and feel free to ask questions.

-math

H. Godwineson · « **Reply #6 on:** April 15, 2002, 09:28:44 AM »

Steven,

You're right about the Hellcat's performance being equal to the F4U's. These two aircraft had almost identical performance when they were equipped with the same engine and propeller. The only edge in speed possessed by the Corsair was at altitudes below 5000 feet, and this was mainly because its supercharger operated differently than that of the Hellcat at those altitudes. To prevent carburetor icing, the Hellcat's supercharger drew its air from the space directly behind the engine, while the Corsair's was drawn from the air-intakes located on the wing-leading edges.

The main reason the Hellcat has suffered from a "low-performance" reputation has to do with a faulty air-speed indicator design that was installed on almost the entire -3 production line. This system consistently showed the Hellcat's top speed as being 20 knots (23mph) slower than a Corsair moving at the same speed. Grumman only discovered this discrepancy after the Navy ordered them to close the "performance gap." This they did, simply copying the Corsair's air-speed indicator system. Apparently, this satisfied the Navy, for nothing else was said about the Hellcat's top-speed being deficient.

However, the Hellcat never shook its "low-performance" reputation. The early performance figures are the ones most often quoted by authors of WWII air-combat history, who either have not done their homework, or simply choose not to believe it. I have read posts on this message board that vehemently deny that the Hellcat's performance can be as good as that of the Corsair which, when boiled down to their basic essence, state that it simply doesn't LOOK as fast. When I made the statement that it didn't make sense to credit the P-47 with a top speed almost 50 mph faster than the Hellcat, when both had the same engine, one fellow replied that the P-47's supercharging was superior (It is, no argument there) and that being heavier doesn't always inhibit a plane's performance (It doesn't). But in summing up, he said "...besides, the Hellcat was a big plane. Have you ever stood beside one." The Hellcat can't be as fast as the P-47 because the Hellcat is such a big plane!? Sorry, fella, but that argument stands on its head!

Naval Air Intelligence conducted performance evaluations of the F6F-5, F4U-1, and the FM-2 against a late model Zero (Model 25 I believe.) Tops speed for the -5 Hellcat was listed as 409 mph at an altitude of 19,000 feet. Top speed for the Corsair at the same altitude was 413 mph. Four mph faster than the Hellcat, the difference that an extra coat of wax can make.

Regards, Shuckins

Steven · « **Reply #7 on:** April 15, 2002, 12:48:57 PM »

Godwineson, very good write-up, thanks. You mention the speed error being a problem for the F6F-3, so did the F6F-5 correct the airspeed problem? Is the speed used for the F6F-5 in Aces High the correct speed then?

TMASTadon · « **Reply #8 on:** April 15, 2002, 01:38:08 PM »

Ok, I'm making a post here with more holes in it than a piece of swiss cheese as far as varifiable statistics and reference material but here it goes anyway.

Several years ago (and here's where the memory fails me) I read an article in an aviation magazine (I MAY still have the mag somewhere in my house, but it'd take a dedicated Search & Rescue to find it) but the article was written by a Gruman test pilot who flew for Gruman during the war. The Navy was displeased with the F6's roll rate and speed in comparison to the Corsair's so they asked them to test the two planes head to head to see what was causing the differences and to "fix" the Hellcat. This may be the same test that Shuckins was referring to. What they discovered was that the F6 WAS just as fast as the F4U, it was just the the indicator they used (not the dial instrument but the actuall indicator that registers how fast the wind is moving through it). The other thing they discovered, concerning the roll rate, had something to do with the wing postitioning at the wing root I believe (its been a LOOONG time since I read the article and I'm NOT an engineer

which they corrected as best they could. This brought about the F6F-5 model with a better roll rate than the -3 model. SO! At least according to the writtings of that Gruman test pilot who flew BOTH the F6 & the F4U under identical situations there was NO difference in the speed of the F6. I'll try to find the magazine if I still have it.
The article also gave a humorus story of how he tried to a "Skip-Hop" take-off in an F4U (something you could do easily in an F6) and nearly took out a row of parked planes and barely got the plane back under controll before plowing into a hanger full of mechanics and planes.

I loved the F6 in AW and was ALWAYS fumming about the slow speed they gave it in AW. They had the -3 modeled and I was always complaining that they needed the -5 with the better roll rate and true speed of an F6. I'm glad to see the F6 IS faster in AH but STILL not as fast as the F4U. But then the only advantages an F4U would have over an F6 is climb rate, roll rate and better E retention.
Oh and while I'm here

does anyone know which canopy it is we have here in AW? I know there were several canopy's for the F6 and the later war one was much less like a birdcage type.

Sorry to have hijacked your thread Fowler. I too strongly recommend reading Maths article on Netaces. Its an excellent piece and truly had me missing my ole kitty

and wanting to work harder to get better with it in AW.

TMASTadon · « **Reply #9 on:** April 15, 2002, 01:45:29 PM »

Ooops!!

Did I say "What canopy do we have here in AW"? OUCH! A thousand lashes with a wet noodle!

May I be drawn and quartered if I ever err again in so greivous a fashion and ever slip and confuse AH (a truly marvelous product) with AW again.

H. Godwineson · « **Reply #10 on:** April 15, 2002, 02:32:57 PM »

Steven,

Yes, Grumman did correct the air-speed indicator system on the -5 Hellcat. As I indicated in my post, Naval Air Intelligence, which was conducting performance evaluations which would benefit our combat pilots in the Pacific, had no reason to stretch the statistics on the Hellcat just to keep Grumman happy.

If I may, I would like to interject another thought here. From what I have read over the years, the Navy apparently played "mind-games" with the companies that built its aircraft during World War II, playing one off against the other. Grumman was constantly being reminded of the "performance gap" between the F6F and the F4U, and Chance-Vought being berated because of the F4U's poor low-speed handling compared to that of the F6F's. How much this may have contributed to the reputations of these two sterling fighters is unknown, but it may be been considerable.

By the way, some sources I have read list the -3 Hellcat's top speed as 376 mph and that of the -5 as 380 mph. This is erroneous. The performance differential between the two models was substantial. Carrier groups that received -3's as replacements for aircraft lost in operations when -5's were not immediately available considered the -3's to be liabilities due to the increased performance and maneuverability of the -5's.

I wish HTC would have the courage to change the flight model of their F6F to correct the errors of the past. An extra 20 knots would be more historically accurate without turning the Hellcat into an uber-plane. How about it Hi-Tech?

Regards, Shuckins

Hornet · « **Reply #11 on:** April 15, 2002, 07:05:23 PM »

hiya Tmast, longtime how ya been?

Steven · « **Reply #12 on:** April 15, 2002, 08:25:51 PM »

<<>>

Well, I may be being subjective, but the F6F is my favorite Pacific Theater aircraft and if this speed deficiency is modeled in Aces High, then I see no problem making comment and bringing it to HTC's attention. 20-knots is a good percentage of its top-end speed and would make a noticeable difference in game-play.

I am curious if he is aware of this or if we are indeed in the wrong here. If we are right and he's made aware of it, I'm curious where it falls into play in action, if any at all, by the Aces High team.

<<>>
TMAST, is this correct? I thought the F6F climbed pretty well for a piece of American iron and generally outclimbed the F4U-1's because of its big wing.

After posting, I thought of something.. if the Hellcat takes x-seconds to get from speed-x to top-speed, and top-speed is actually 20-knots more than realized, then it probably accelerates faster on the whole too. Hmm, this could prove very interesting.

Sikboy · « **Reply #13 on:** April 16, 2002, 07:57:03 AM »

OK, here goes...

Does anyone have any data which states not that there was confusion about the top speed/roll rate or anything, but that the F-6F should be 20 knots faster than it is modeled in AH?

-Sikboy

Yeager · « **Reply #14 on:** April 16, 2002, 08:18:30 AM »

There are definately some things very odd with the AH F6F. Although Im not in a position to disclose findings of a recent Top Secret Pony Investigation Team concerning performance of the F6F Flight Model and certain ordinance peculiarities, suffice it to say:

Relax, its just a game