Author Topic: Pacifist fantasy (Read 881 times)

easymo · « **on:** May 01, 2002, 02:25:20 AM »

This may sound like a rant. But it is a sincere question for our liberal brethren. How can you slip so far into denial. Every time the shooting stops for a couple of years, you guys are ready to declare "peace on earth". Any school boy, who has ever attended a history class, can tell you, mans history is one war after another. People don't leave America alone because of our good will. I don't care what Hollywood would have you belive. They leave us alone because our troops are well trained, efficient, killers. This is something they are rightfully proud of. And I thank the Gods for. Most of us sleep well at night knowing we have those people watching over us. If all we had was a bunch of guys holding out the hand of friendship, and singing We Are The World, I would never sleep again.

Winston Churchill had a hell of a time dragging the British out of their Pacifist fantasy. In fact it took the Germans knocking on the door to wake them up. Our president had to wait until the Japanese BOMBED us before the U.S. came out of its fog. It is always the same, throughout history. Not wanting to fight a war is not going to magically stop it from happening. IMHO reducing your countries ability to wage war INVITES attack, though the appearance of weakness, and hastens the very thing you guys claim you want to avoid.

How can you ignore even your own nature?

None of you would play an online game that had you raping, and tourturing small children. Thats because you are all "normal"

All of you play an online game that has you shooting down, and killing other people. Thats because you are "normal"

It may not be pretty. But the same instinct that makes you check the text for your kill message, is the same one that caused that Canadian sniper to have his pic taken with that bag of meat. I find this one especially odd, considering how you guys often ooh and ahh over the number of kills some real life pilot got. I'm damned if I see any difference between a bunch of swastika stickers pasted on the side of a ww2 P51. And a ground pounders trophy pic.

So thats my question. In the face of mans nature, his undeniable history, and the darker side of your own nature. How can you possibly, live in your peace,love, dove, fantasy world?

LtHans · « **Reply #1 on:** May 01, 2002, 04:18:17 AM »

I've always wanted to be present at one of those peace rallys and speak my mind too.

"Why must you war mongers cause so much death and destruction. Why can't you realise that we don't have to be like this!"

Because people who beat their swords into plowshares end up working for those who didn't. THAT IS WHY!

Hans.

10Bears · « **Reply #2 on:** May 01, 2002, 04:41:45 AM »

Hey howdy Easymo..

But it is a sincere question for our liberal brethren. How can you slip so far into denial. Every time the shooting stops for a couple of years, you guys are ready to declare "peace on earth".
Heh..
A couple of quick questions for you and then some comments

In 1919 were the Conservatives for or against the League of Nations?
In 1940/41 were the Conservatives for or against entering the war in Europe?
In 1999 were the Conservatives for or against Operation Allied Force?
In 1965 when you were in Viet Nam, what was the actual geopolitical breakdown among the troops?... I’m guessing these young guys didn’t talk much about politics but you must of got a sense of which way they leaned. Republicans would like us to believe they’re the rah-rah gun-ho party all the time but I’m not sure that’s necessarily true. Democrats and Liberals fought hard in all America’s wars so I’m not at all sure how this myth of Democrats as meek little bunnies hiding under the bed until it all blows over got started.

It’s the isolationists in this country that seem to think that if the world goes to hell in a hand basket that somehow this island called America would not be adversely affected.

As a more progressive leaning person, I’d like to believe that stronger ties to other countries, education, more free trade, more free press are the key to a longer lasting peace. You don’t want to bomb the folks that buy your TV sets.. You don’t want to deny their income to buy those TVs.

EasyMo, the most antiwar people I’ve ever met have been Viet Nam Combat Veterans...

As far as our game goes, it’s the hunt and tactics deployed to achieve glory not the kill itself. "The Hunt" is what's part of human nature and what we miss in this modern life.

Hey yo.. what are you doing up so late?..

... can’t sleep like me.

Peace..

Wotan · « **Reply #3 on:** May 01, 2002, 04:57:34 AM »

Quote

It may be mere chance that I have never met an honest pacifist...I have never heard of any pacifist organization that will face facts.

Ezra Pound [/b] - Impact[/i]

Taking it as a whole, the pacifist position is commonly the result of dis-honesty with ones self and the lack of courage to face facts. Force governs all the universe. Whether it be in mans relationship to man or in nature.

History has shown that violence is what gets things done. Or atleast the threat of violence.

The idyllic Nature of Rousseau and his romanticism is a dream of men running away from real life. Nature as revealed to us by biologists, just go into the woods and look, is a Nature red with fangs and claws and poison. Life preys on life.

Humanity is no different. Except that we are capable of setting "rules" and enforcing these with the threat of greater violence.

Something are worth killing for and as long as we are willing to do just that then "peace" may have a chance.

"Dont Tread on Me"

The only reason the modern "pacifist" is able to excersize his "belief" is because the world is full of violent men ready to fight and kill to preserve it.

No "sit in" or "hunger strike" or "campfire sing along" will do anything to keep the wolves at bay.

Leslie · « **Reply #4 on:** May 01, 2002, 05:27:29 AM »

A lot of it is probably hold-over from the 60s and early 70s Easymo. My Dad used to say The Beatles were the beginning of the decline of the United States. Now look what's happened. I believe music, along with song lyrics, is influential in shaping attitudes of people. And, at least as I know it, Beatles music was/is harmonious to the point of being hypnotic, and is well suited to "flower children" and their pursuits.

Anyway, that's my answer as far as the so-called peace movement in the 60s goes. Bear in mind, that the Beatles were from England, where the pacifist idea had held out during the post WWII era to some extent. People were tired of war and needed some "peace" for awhile, though I do admire Prime Minister Thatcher for her guts and leadership during the 80s. She was Britain's modern day Churchill. Churchill and Thatcher are very good representatives of Britain. When I think of Britain and the soul of Britain, that's who I think of.

Will close this by saying, the absence of war is not peace. Sometimes it means the tyrants have won and are having their way with a poor, hapless population. In that way, it's not peace. I believe that folks who don't want war are probably concerned with what the cost will be to our men and women in arms above all else. Sometimes war is necessary, but it is always very bad when it happens.

Les

Dowding (Work) · « **Reply #5 on:** May 01, 2002, 06:23:05 AM »

The Beatles were the downfall of America?

If the very fabric of your country can be unravelled by a bunch of people listening to progressive music, I don't see why people should care so much about such a fragile entity. Surely things are just a little more complicated than that?

As for pre-WW2 British policy towards Germany: I'd say if the horrors of WW1 were fresh on your mind, Bolshevikism seemed to be threatening the the very structure of your society and a well organised man by the name of Hitler seemed to want to reunite Germans separated by the terms of a treaty you were now embarrassed to even remember, you'd be a little reluctant to enter a war.

Again, things are much complicated than they first appear.

Leslie - Thatcher was a right-wing nutcase, lap-dog of US foreign policy makers, who destroyed most of the communities around where I grew up. Her policies revolved around the 'greed is good' mantra. Frankly, I'm glad she'll never make another speech again.

Comparing her to Churchill is tenuous at best and a tremendous disservice to everything Churchill stood for at worst.

Gunthr · « **Reply #6 on:** May 01, 2002, 06:29:04 AM »

Leslie - good observations! I agree that the 60's really popularized the idea that Utopia is possible -

that there can be Peace on Earth

that we can solve world hunger by ourselves

that we can end poverty.

I think this kind of thinking is the result of years and years of good times in the USA. Good economy. High standard of living. Higher education for everybody, taught by liberals from the safety of the ivory towers.

In reality, you have to die and go to heaven to get all that stuff.

Good post Easymo!

Sikboy · « **Reply #7 on:** May 01, 2002, 07:00:13 AM »

Damn, with the title "Pacifist Fantasy" I figured this was going to be a "Penthouse letter" featuring hot hippy chicks.

Dear Penthouse,

Although I've read your fine publication for many years I never thought I'd be writting to you! But you'll never believe what happened to me while driving through Northern California...

Oh well, guess I'll have to go download porn.

-Sikboy

Leslie · « **Reply #8 on:** May 01, 2002, 07:38:48 AM »

Ah Dowding, you ruined your reply by adding an edit. Up to that point I was willing to listen to you. One question, why? It weakened your argument considerably...with me anyway.

Les

Dowding (Work) · « **Reply #9 on:** May 01, 2002, 08:03:38 AM »

Hmmm... not sure what you mean Leslie.

I just tagged the rant about Thatcher on the end. I grew up under her reign in one of her 'target' areas. Where are you coming from on this?

CyranoAH · « **Reply #10 on:** May 01, 2002, 08:30:06 AM »

Hey, if WWII was won by the allies is because Captain Kirk let that sissy Joan Collins die when he travelled to the past

:D:D

Daniel

Leslie · « **Reply #11 on:** May 01, 2002, 08:38:55 AM »

No offense intended Dowding toward you mate. I am interested in what happened to your communities, and how they were destroyed by greed, in your mind, by the US foreign policy makers.

I'm not from England and have never visited there, however my family moved to Illinois from England (Lincolnshire) in the 1890's...so I do have an interest in the homeland of my ancestors.

Hope you will see it that way Dowding. I am interested in how Britain is doing, because we consider you guys to be our greatest friends and allies in the free world.

Just wanted to say that. Please, let's not have another Revolutionary War...LOL.

Les

midnight Target · « **Reply #12 on:** May 01, 2002, 09:32:14 AM »

"liberal here!"

Just when exactly was I signed up to the Pacifist Party? Just wondering, cause I don't remember signing the forms.

Funny thing is, I a- a-- ag---- agree (hard to spit that one out) with easymo about almost everything in his post except the equating of Pacifists with Liberals.

Dowding (Work) · « **Reply #13 on:** May 01, 2002, 09:48:19 AM »

No, Leslie, I think you misunderstand. I wasn't saying US foreign policy or Thatcher's support of it destroyed communities around here - I was saying her internal policies affected us. It had nothing to do with the US, in fact. I was simply listing her faults - and they weren't neccessarily related.

She was scum. Now she's just senile scum.

I hope that clears it up.

PS. Lincolnshire is a stone throw away from me. My mother's family is from there.

Leslie · « **Reply #14 on:** May 01, 2002, 10:30:15 AM »

Get some sleep Dowding.

Les:D