Author Topic: BOB Final Stats... (Read 1061 times)

eskimo2 · « **on:** May 18, 2002, 08:47:34 PM »

I love statistics!
It's especially fun to look at the stats with only 3 armed planes per side. Since we were reliving an air war, I only looked at air-to-air stats.

LW air-to-air losses: 949
RAF air-to-air losses: 1174

Giving the LW a K/D of 1.24
and the RAF a K/D of 0.81

Individual aircraft actual kills and losses against fighters, Fighter K/D and Overall K/D against aircraft (Best to Worse Overall):

109e - 572 fighter kills, 498 fighter losses =Vs. fighter K/D of 1.15 Overall K/D 1.3
110c - 306 fighter kills, 295 fighter losses = Vs. fighter K/D of 1.04 Overall K/D 1.19
Hurri1 - 281 fighter kills, 258 fighter losses = Vs. fighter K/D of 1.09 Overall K/D 1.1
JU-88 - 80 fighter kills, 80 fighter losses = Vs. fighter K/D of 1.0 Overall K/D 1.06
Spit1 - 577 fighter kills, 683 fighter losses = Vs. fighter K/D of 0.84 Overall K/D 0.84
TBM - 54 fighter kills, 166 fighter losses = Vs. fighter K/D of 0.33 Overall K/D 0.36

I flew LW only during this week, so my view is clearly one-sided. But I am also very surprised by the results. I expected the Spit to come out on top, and the Hurri to end up on bottom. How the Hurricane did so well, I can't imagine. In either the 109 or 110, I fear Spitfires! I figure that if I don't kill them in the first pass or two, I'm in deep doo-doo. The Hurricane, on the other hand, makes me salivate. It's easy to control the fight when your opponent's plane is 40 MPH slower than yours. After checking my personal stats, however, I see that I have underestimated the Hurri. I did far better against the Spit... Hmm?
The 110 also statistically did better than I would have guessed. Taking into account that 110s probably were used during this week as a jabo platform much more than the 109, they faired pretty well. I know that I lost a lot of them to de-acking duty and I also made myself venerable to enemy fighters while on base attack. Other than having the best armament in the set-up, the 110 is a bit of a turd. It turns poorly and the Spit can easily run it down.
I think the JU-88 out performed the TBM because it was only attacked by rifle caliber mg armed fighters and is relatively tough. The TBM, however, had to put up with 20mm cannon. I did expect the TBM to do better statistically.

eskimo

Sabre · « **Reply #1 on:** May 18, 2002, 11:24:11 PM »

Thanks for doing that job for me, Eskimo;). I got so busy I forgot to generate the Stats for BoB. The other tale told here is how balanced this set up is. Thanks for everyone's participation...I had a blast!

Sabre
CT Staff

214thCavalier · « **Reply #2 on:** May 19, 2002, 08:22:01 AM »

Just confirms what those of us who flew both sides were saying, the spit was totally outclassed v 109.
I mean look at it the ONLY aircraft with a worse kill per death is the TBM !
Yup the spit is only slightly better than that big fat slow slug of a TBM bomber.
Guess thats very realistic then and as long as you set up the arena and only fly LW then you can expect to have a rosy view of it and call it a well balanced setup

Anyway i enjoyed it until i realised how much of an advantage the 109s had at which point I went back to the MA.
I am not surprised at the results it was easy to spot if you flew both sides.

eskimo2 · « **Reply #3 on:** May 19, 2002, 09:40:19 AM »

214th,
I was not trying to make any kind of a point here, just observations.
Further, I am not a CM and did not set this up. (I don't like being "forced" to fly for a particular side). Some weeks, I fly both sides, hopping to the lower numbered side. Other weeks I stay on one side.

Sabre, however, is a CM and set up this week's arena.
Add up Sabre's kills + deaths while flying for the RAF and you get 46. For the LW, it's 3. Clearly he set things so that he could beat up on everyone in his Spit-1! LOL

eskimo

Swager · « **Reply #4 on:** May 19, 2002, 02:36:40 PM »

The Spit had a different purpose in the BOB TOD. Kill bombers, not to engage fighters. Me109's purpose was to kill fighters. If it was strictly fighter against fighter the ratios would of been different.

IMHO

214thCavalier · « **Reply #5 on:** May 19, 2002, 07:58:47 PM »

Eskimo i posted only observations from my point of view, but it does not mean they are right or wrong, its just the way it seemed sitting in my chair.
Your post about Sabres kills could mean just one thing he cant fly LW

And i believe if you put experienced pilots in them that the 109 would kick spit1a butt all day long.

jordi · « **Reply #6 on:** May 19, 2002, 08:44:28 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by 214thCavalier
Eskimo i posted only observations from my point of view, but it does not mean they are right or wrong, its just the way it seemed sitting in my chair.
Your post about Sabres kills could mean just one thing he cant fly LW
And i believe if you put experienced pilots in them that the 109 would kick spit1a butt all day long.

Maybe inexeperieced pilots flew mostly Spits ? or by people not familar with the Spit ?

Just saying.

Jordi

Wotan · « **Reply #7 on:** May 19, 2002, 09:15:05 PM »

it was most of the spits i killed were not do to any great advantage of the 109s but because of mistakes made on behalf of the spit pilot.

The hurri is outclassed by the 109 imho pretty easily.

-ammo- · « **Reply #8 on:** May 19, 2002, 09:37:08 PM »

JU-88A-4 was the only viable sub for the Heinkle 111, and early Ju-88's. It is very fast comparitively and was a hard target for those 303 armed birds. Very frustrating for me, so I didnt fly there much.

eskimo2 · « **Reply #9 on:** May 19, 2002, 09:40:59 PM »

214th,

I know Sabre very well. He flies both the Spit and 109 regularly and can put up as good of a fight in a 109 as he can in any plane. I fear him more in a 109 than in a Spit, and I have fought him in both planes many times. He's been flying the 109 since AH was in Beta.
Sabre and other CMs often feel obligated to fly for the underdogs.

Your opinions on aircraft qualities are valid.

Sugesting that CMs intentionally set up arenas with imballance so that they can wreck havoc or for any personal advantage, however, is unfair and inappropriate.

eskimo

eskimo2 · « **Reply #10 on:** May 19, 2002, 09:44:04 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Wotan
it was most of the spits i killed were not do to any great advantage of the 109s but because of mistakes made on behalf of the spit pilot.

The hurri is outclassed by the 109 imho pretty easily.

Wotan,
I agree.
Why did the Hurri do so well statistically (last week)?

Does anyone have an idea?

eskimo

Wotan · « **Reply #11 on:** May 19, 2002, 10:11:48 PM »

the hurri is a good plane. but simple performance wise the 109 has the advantage. But put someone like Asmo in the hurri he kicks arse.

I really dont know but i see more hurris then spits in the last to bobs. Dunno why

Wilbus · « **Reply #12 on:** May 20, 2002, 05:24:41 AM »

Well Ammo, the JU88 A4 participated in BoB and even if we got Heinkels it should still be in BoB. The A4 version saw action in BoB and spit pilots described it as "very fast and hard to catch" so pretty realistic IMO.

214thCavalier · « **Reply #13 on:** May 20, 2002, 10:37:37 AM »

Eskimo i think you need to reread my original post with ref to this comment of yours.

"Suggesting that CMs intentionally set up arenas with imballance so that they can wreck havoc or for any personal advantage, however, is unfair and inappropriate"

This is from my post,

"Guess thats very realistic then and as long as you set up the arena and only fly LW then you can expect to have a rosy view of it and call it a well balanced setup

"

That was actually the result of a conversation in the CT but i cannot remember who was speaking at the time.
But they said they were a CM but only ever flew LW now my senile mind may have mistakenly assumed they were the CM for this setup, hey shoot me.
Referring to that same sentence my point is it is realistic for the 109 to outperform the spit1a meaning of course that the spits better turning ability dont mean bugger all when all the 109 has to do is crawl all over it from above set it up and kill.
You may also note that sentence ended with a Winking smiley

in my book that says hey dont take this too seriously.

But i still fail to see how you interpreted any of that as saying

"that CMs intentionally set up arenas with imballance so that they can wreck havoc or for any personal advantage"

I notice Ammo says he was frustrated and left the CT as well so I was not the only one finding it not to my taste.

While I was in the CT i never saw a JU88 so did not have the chance to try and catch one, but whilst flying 109's I started a 1v1 with a spit another joined in making it 2 v 1 then a third joined in so 3 spits v a 109, 1 spit augered the other 2 were shot down and i safely rtb.
I never lost a 109.
However fly a spit1a and you could not buy a kill of a 109 unless of course they had brain fade and made an horrendous mistake.
So no fun getting your bellybutton handed to you in spits and for me no fun beating up on spits that were hopelessly outclassed, so i departed the CT, but thats again only my view and may or may not be valid.

I do appreciate what you guys are doing for the CT and try them out but so far for me none has got anywhere near the Tunisia setup for outright fun, balance and just having an all round good time.

Wotan · « **Reply #14 on:** May 20, 2002, 10:53:07 AM »

i cant see how the ju88 was a problem i rarely saw one.

80 kills vrs 80 deaths speaks volumes. in the 1st bob i flew spits and hurris some and went 4 v 1 vrs ju88s. Vulcan killed when i got stupid. I saw him lose parts so instead of re positioning for a better pass. i drifted into his 6 and died.

They certainly werent hard to kill.

And they were in bob i did a search for performance differences in the a1 and a4 and at highest was a 16mph difference and lowest was 9 mph. But in the bob the raf had much greater success vrs heinkels and do17s.

My experience fighting spits in the ct was the guys i fought flew umm lioke a spit V. the standard move was pull stick to belly and enter a tight flat turn. Well a 109e aint a g6. with a bit of vert and a notch of flaps i could easily pull lead and kill them.

Spit1s zoomed and dived well. They held speed out of the dive. i dont think there was that much of a disparity between the planesets as some make out. Also pilot experience and time in plane makes much more a difference then plane a vrs plane b.