Author Topic: The law? (Read 1744 times)

Intrepid · « **Reply #105 on:** June 11, 2002, 04:33:59 PM »

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What is it called then when you are attacked by virtue of nothing other than your nationality by members of another nation and you respond by invading that nation and killing and capturing it's citizens and/or residents?

Ok, I give up what does your question have to do with what I posted? If you just want my opinion of a definition to your question I'd call it combat, self defense, sacrifice. What do you call it?

"If the Constitution is to be construed to mean what the majority at any given period in history wish the Constitution to mean, why a written Constitution?"--Frank J. Hogan, President, American Bar Assn. (1939)

Hortlund · « **Reply #106 on:** June 11, 2002, 04:34:35 PM »

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Originally posted by AKIron

What is it called then when you are attacked by virtue of nothing other than your nationality by members of another nation and you respond by invading that nation and killing and capturing it's citizens and/or residents?

Well, technically it would have to be an attack by the armed members of another nations armed forces for it to be a war.

So, to answer your question, it would be called terrorism.

AKIron · « **Reply #107 on:** June 11, 2002, 04:52:27 PM »

The Taliban is about the closest thing to an armed force Afghanistan had. It is believed that those who hijacked U.S. planes were members and they were in fact armed. IMO that was an act of war if not by Afghanistan then at least by the Taliban.

Hortlund · « **Reply #108 on:** June 11, 2002, 05:00:42 PM »

eh...thats not really how it works
Armed members of a nations armed forces implies soldiers acting under orders from the CiC for that nation.

Terrorists armed with boxcutters doesnt quite fit that description, regardless of the connections between the Taliban and Al Queida

Tumor · « **Reply #109 on:** June 11, 2002, 05:09:36 PM »

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Originally posted by john9001
and after jose blows somthing up and kills many people , you 'civil rights" people will say "WHY DIDN'T THE FBI DOOOO SOMETHING, THEY KNEW ABOUT HIM" whine whine

I find myself forced to agree with this statement

easymo · « **Reply #110 on:** June 11, 2002, 05:21:43 PM »

We once took twice as many casualties, in a single battle, of a ten year long war, as we have in this "war". I find it imbarrssing to see how easy it is to spook some Americans into chucking their own constitution. On a personal note. It makes it even worse, that its the Golly-geen liberals that are showing some balls.

AKiron brought up one of most disturbing things about this. This business of the state claiming it would give away their method of catching the bad guys if they held an open trial. If this precedent is set. The state can make this claim about ANY alleged crime.

Hortlund · « **Reply #111 on:** June 11, 2002, 05:24:51 PM »

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Originally posted by easymo
We once took twice as many casualties, in a single battle, of a ten year long war, as we have in this "war". I find it imbarrssing to see how easy it is to spook some Americans into chucking their own constitution. On a personal note. It makes it even worse, that its the Golly-geen liberals that are showing some balls.

AKiron brought up one of most disturbing things about this. This business of the state claiming it would give away their method of catching the bad guys if they held an open trial. If this precedent is set. The state can make this claim about ANY alleged crime.

Because we all know that deep down, all the mythical entity known as "the State", wants to do is enslave us all and put us all in jail?

Tumor · « **Reply #112 on:** June 11, 2002, 05:57:34 PM »

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Originally posted by easymo
We once took twice as many casualties, in a single battle, of a ten year long war, as we have in this "war". I find it imbarrssing to see how easy it is to spook some Americans into chucking their own constitution. On a personal note. It makes it even worse, that its the Golly-geen liberals that are showing some balls.

AKiron brought up one of most disturbing things about this. This business of the state claiming it would give away their method of catching the bad guys if they held an open trial. If this precedent is set. The state can make this claim about ANY alleged crime.

Unfortunately, they can't give away the means by which evidence was collected. Thats just how it is.

Eagler · « **Reply #113 on:** June 11, 2002, 06:16:14 PM »

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Originally posted by Hortlund

Because we all know that deep down, all the mythical entity known as "the State", wants to do is enslave us all and put us all in jail?

nah, who would pay them, i.e. taxes aren't collected from inmates

AKIron · « **Reply #114 on:** June 11, 2002, 06:34:11 PM »

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Originally posted by easymo
We once took twice as many casualties, in a single battle, of a ten year long war, as we have in this "war". I find it imbarrssing to see how easy it is to spook some Americans into chucking their own constitution. On a personal note. It makes it even worse, that its the Golly-geen liberals that are showing some balls.

AKiron brought up one of most disturbing things about this. This business of the state claiming it would give away their method of catching the bad guys if they held an open trial. If this precedent is set. The state can make this claim about ANY alleged crime.

How would you feel if it were your spouse and/or kids in one of those planes or towers? If you haven't honestly examined yourself in this light then perhaps you should before judging the way our government is handling the current crisis.

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #115 on:** June 11, 2002, 07:04:15 PM »

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Originally posted by AKIron
How would you feel if it were your spouse and/or kids in one of those planes or towers? If you haven't honestly examined yourself in this light then perhaps you should before judging the way our government is handling the current crisis.

You think people who don't live in large cities don't already ponder this... but instead of planes, now it's the possibility of bio-chem weapons, nukes, large explosives, hell maybe just human meat bombs... in the end I'd want an effective plan of action. When GW comes on the news and says, "I want you to pay special attention to your surroundings and report any suspiscious activities to the local authorities immediately."... well I get this feeling that it don't matter WHAT the government does, in the end the only one saving myself or my loved ones would be myself or themselves by watching out for themselves.

So when you examine "What would you do if you were in those people's shoes".. well for one, I wouldn't expect rights or freedoms to be stripped away one by one over the next decade or however long this "war on terrorism" lasts.

The government HAD the information, and the intel, indicating something involving airplanes was gonna happen. They just shrugged it off. "It can't happen here"... well it did, and now for some strange reason people think that giving away their rights or allowing the government free reign will somehow circumvent future terrorist attacks/plots despite the fact the government HAD the information to begin with.. it just wasn't being paid attention to.

Now that the information regarding terrorists is being paid attention to, they're suddenly catching people... imagine that.

-SW

AKIron · « **Reply #116 on:** June 11, 2002, 07:20:23 PM »

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Originally posted by AKSWulfe

in the end I'd want an effective plan of action.

I never conceded that what is being done to this alleged enemy isn't legal. I believe that it is. Does the public have a right to know that he is being treated in accordance with law? I don't think so.

What if a public trial revealed to his cohorts how he was trapped and this information enabled them to evade capture and blow up your city. Would you still feel that your idea of due process was warranted?

All hypothetical, maybe, maybe not.

How effective a plan do you want?

BTW, I live very near a big city and on really bad traffic days I probably wouldn't mind a nuke or two.

AKSWulfe · « **Reply #117 on:** June 11, 2002, 07:27:22 PM »

Whoops- I guess I strayed away.. I didn't mean regarding this individual, I meant as a whole... what's happened within the government since Sept 11th... all the shifting around and stuff.

No, indeed based on what I've heard more recently that this guy was definitely in some way involved in terrorist activities. I think he should be tried, however, I believe it will be a quick and swift guilty verdict based on the information that has been gathered.

Whether it's a public trial or not, I wouldn't care... just sentence him and execute him if he's guilty (or whatever plans they have for him)... if he's found innocent of attempting to build/detonate a nuke... he would most likely still be found guilty of treason (I think? he's working for/with an enemy of the US) which would in turn put him into military custody (well again I guess).. and this would probably mean he'll be locked away for the duration of this war anyhow.
-SW

Apache · « **Reply #118 on:** June 11, 2002, 07:28:59 PM »

SW

Look, I'm not advocating giving away my rights, why should I? I don't think this is some grand scheme for nation wide martial law.

You nor I will go to AlQuaida for example, train to kill Americans, formulate a plan to accomplish this, receive funds to accomplish this, then come back to America to finalize plans to accomplish said mission.

This guy did. He is a member of Al Quaida, no matter his place of birth. He is an enemy combatant. He is an enemy of The United States. Our government isn't interested at this point in criminal prosecution. They have national security in mind.

Have they broken laws? Maybe, I'm not sure but I don't think so. I think we are in a time that new laws are being made. But I needn't worry. I'm not a terrorist or an enemy of the state nor shall I ever be.

Your Friend,

Staga · « **Reply #119 on:** June 11, 2002, 07:40:24 PM »

So is that guy really a member of Al Quaida or not?

In South-America there are plenty of old presidents who would know how to handle situations like you have now. I heard Augusto Pinochet was quite handy dealing stuff like that. Maybe you could hire some "El Presidente" to help you to throw your constitutional law out from the window