Erich Hartmann's 109

[Glasses]

Again you feel the Treaty of versailles was the legitimate?, blaming one Nation for all that happened in WWI that it did not start, trying to effectively destroy it and starve it to death? Is that legal by itself?

You do see to fail why people like Hitler come to power feeding on the desperation the people felt at that time while seeing no one over turning what the treaty had done.  For an American is easy to judge and point fingers,the real thing to look at is CAUSE and EFFECT you only look at the effect only,  not the causes that lead to such a person to rise. The international community  was as responsible as the elected officials were,  what they thought would  prevent future wars with Germany, created the atmosphere in which such a man could rise to power and do what he did.

Again the LW was  indeed raised during the regime but its officers and enlisted personnel were not associated with the Nazi party infact most were forbeyed to join any political organization even the Nazi party , of course, some did because they were caught of the ethusiasm of the time(Later people who tried to withdraw from the party got shot,missing or shun out,so looking for their own well being most opted to shut up and put up rather than to lose their lives).

The quote of the oath was used by Units of the SS and the Hitler Youth who answered directly to the Nazi party and Hitler. The military itself was one other of the factions within Germany   Hitler had to convince in order to gain power. He felt he had to create loyalty to him in  the early stages of his reign, he felt the military would revolt against him, but it never occured, because even if they didn't  neccesarily agree with the guy, it was their duty as soldiers, disciplined soldiers, to obey their commanders in chief no matter who they were . Even today again, you see that many military people can't  just say, I quit and move on. In  any military of the world at the time or today simply  they would have been imprisoned or shot  in some extreme cases, nor everytime a country changes its leaders can't they say so either.

It's really Ironic that the LW who it indeed grew during the Nazi regime being called Nazis while it was the most anti Nazi establishment of the German armed forces at the time.  

I'm not a Nazi sympathizer nor am I making excuses I'm just puting forth the causes for which people like Hitler rise to power and the Irony of the Versaille treaty and its futility which from POV  was illegal by itself.

Even though they may have fought for the wrong cause, as some of here say, their service in the war and their accomplishments during that time, in difficult circumstances should never be forgotten  its a diservice to these people to forget the courage they had even if they were fighting for the wrong side(the one that lost) .

[AKSWulfe]

P-r-o-p-o-g-a-n-d-a Glassess, p-r-o-p-o-g-a-n-d-a.

LuftWaffe was so anti-Nazi it had Swastikas on it's planes, medals, uniforms, airmen badges, and even pilot logs.

They may not have been the Waffen SS, but it was part of the military- a military built for Nazi Germany to do Hitler's bidding.

What was the national flag at that time? Oh, that's right... a swastika...
-SW

[Glasses]

Yes and the military what could it do go on and protest go on strike ? get real Seawulfe  those that did would have been shot for mutiny or for revolting against their superiors. Simple as that.

Again you can't understand and never will what happened at that time  beucase you will still see the treaty  as a legitimate act, which only enraged and disolusioned the German people, which BTW does not help in making friends in the international community in this country  .


The only thing that stopped the Western Allies for putting such terms again at the end of the war , on a frankly destroyed nation was that there was a propaganda war to be won during the Cold War  and the best way to make the Communist look bad was to rebuild Western Germany.  Later, when they(the communists) closed East Berlin to  let the people of Berlin starve to death , the  Western Allies established the Berlin Airlift, am not saying the people of East  Berlin did not need the supplies, they indeed needed them, but it was mainly because of that, to win the propaganda war .


Again I' not being a sympathizer  I love  the Democracy I live in and Enjoy it and I am an American Citizen since I was born.  In any nation even a democratic one if you defy the establishment to overthrow the current goverment and you're caught you're going to find yourself in a pretty tight spot and you will be imprisoned for a very veeeeery long time.

[AKSWulfe]

You don't have to revolt to show your disguist for your country, or who's in power.... did I say you had to? No, but that does not make the LuftWaffe somehow anti-Nazi... that's like saying the army, or navy, was anti-Nazi. Some people may have been, but the organization, establishment, the means at which they came to be (the Nazi party, and only the Nazi party had their hands in this), and the underlying motive for the creation of such an establishment means that it was indeed a pro-Nazi air force. If it wasn't they would of defected early on, not when they simply began to lose.

The loser pays for every war, the Treaty of Versailles is no different. But your love for the LuftWaffe, and your idolization of it's pilots, blinds you from seeing this. Someone has to pay retribution for the mass destruction, and massive loss of lives, Germany and it's allies lost- they were going to pay.

So you get real, wake up and smell the reality- regardless of what the Treaty of Versailles did to Germany- they lost a war in which they were the biggest and strongest enemy. Then they turn around and start another one less than 2 decades later. The Treaty of Versailles is somehow justification for the Nazi regime and the horrors they inflicted on a population? And the defenders of this regime are somehow not part of the regime?

Bulltoejam Glassess, read more objectively... I know the idolization of the LuftWaffe might be too much for you to accept that they were indeed defenders of the Nazi regime, a Nazi funded organization, and basically Nazis themselves with a few exceptions.... but it's true, just because a few said they didn't become Nazis doesn't make them heros or someone to idolize... they stood by and fought for Hitler and the Nazi regime.
-SW

[straffo]

What about reading babek's posts ?

he is both german and wise : http://www.hitechcreations.com/forums/showthread.php?s=&postid=515751#post515751

[Nashwan]

The quote of the oath was used by Units of the SS and the Hitler Youth who answered directly to the Nazi party and Hitler.

That was the oath used by all the armed forces, I believe. It was certainly used by the Wehrmacht.

It's really Ironic that the LW who it indeed grew during the Nazi regime being called Nazis while it was the most anti Nazi establishment of the German armed forces at the time.

I have a reactionary army, an Imperial navy, and a National Socialist air force
Adolf Hitler

[J_A_B]

"It's really Ironic that the LW who it indeed grew during the Nazi regime being called Nazis while it was the most anti Nazi establishment of the German armed forces at the time. "

Uh...right....

So since the LW wasn't as fanatical as their Army was, they must not have been Nazis at all?  

Am I un-American because I don't go to city council meetings like my neighbor does?  Am I anti-guns because I don't own 50 of them like my uncle does?   Does not voting in the primaries mean I'm an anarchist?  Since my aunt has 5 statues of Jesus in her car and I don't, does that make me anti-Catholic too?

Using that same flawed logic, I can say that since you fly LW planes in AH and I don't, you must be pro-Nazi.

Sorry, you're adding 1 + 1 and getting 5 from it.    

Trying to "prove" the LW was anti-nazi and using the rest of the German Military as comparison is pointless.  Sure, the LW wasn't as fanatical as the Waffen SS....but that hardly makes the LW "anti-Nazi", any more than my not having 5 Jesus statues in my car makes me "anti-Catholic".



J_A_B

[mipoikel]

Dont get this too serious but without Hitler we wouldnt have this sim!

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by midnight Target
Hortlund, instead of saying there were inaccuracies in my post, why don't you point them out specifically.

[/b]

Damn, Midnight why do I always get to play the role of the History teacher or the Law professor when I talk to you? I think "ok, sure, I'll try to explain", and then I sit and write and write (instead of playing AH I might add), and the only kind of response I ever get after posting a 2-page answer to you is some completely irrelevant ranting often combined with a personal attack.  

FINE

1) The SS never raided anything in 1934, that was not part of their job description at the time. The SA might have, but the SS did not.

2) Hitler became chancellor in Jan 1933, nothing else. In a coalition government. At this point in time, the nazis were no where near alble to do as they pleased.

3)  A new Reichstag election was scheduled for early March 1933. Only a few days before the election, on February 27, the Reichstag building was partially destroyed by fire. The Nazis may well have set the blaze, but they blamed the Communists, charging that the Communists were plotting to seize power. Hitler convinced Hindenburg to take strong action against the supposed Communist threat, and the president suspended freedom of speech and the press and other civil liberties.

That is president Hindenburg, and no one else.

4) In the March 5 election, the Nazis won 288 seats in the Reichstag. With the support of their conservative nationalist allies, who held 52 seats, the Nazis controlled a majority of the 647 member Reichstag. The Nazi majority was even more substantial, since none of the 81 Communist deputies were allowed to take their seats.

5) On March 23, 1933, the Reichstag passed the Enabling Act, which gave dictatorial authority to Hitler's cabinet for four years. Armed with full powers, Hitler moved to eliminate all possible centers of opposition. His policy is known as Gleichschaltung, which translates literally as coordination. In this context, however, it meant more precisely subordination, that is, subordinating all independent institutions to the authority of Hitler and the Nazi Party.

It was the Enabling Act of March 23, 1933, which in a legal way conferred dictatorial powers on Adolf Hitler. Only 94 Social Democratic votes were cast against it (out of 143 Social Democratic seats). The date for its abrogation (see Article 5) was never kept.

Article 1.
Laws of the Reich can also be promulgated by the Reich government apart from the method prescribed by the Constitution.

Article 2.
Laws decided upon by the government of the Reich can depart from the Constitution of the Reich, in so far as they do not touch the existence as such, of such institutions as the Reichstag and the Reichsrat. The rights of the Reichspresident remain untouched....

Article 4.
Treaties of the Reich with foreign powers which have reference to matters concerning the laws of the Reich, do not need the consent of the bodies which had part in the making of such laws, as long as this present law is valid.

Article 5.
This law is in force on the day of its promulgation. It is abrogated on April 1, 1937; it is further abrogated if the present government of the Reich is replaced by another.

And there you have it. In a democratic way, using strictly legal methods, a democracy was abandoned.

And no, the issue is not as complicated as you seem to think it is. As soon as the German Constitution was sacked, the democracy ceased to exist.

[/b]
Hm..yes, and when I show you that the German constitution never was sacked...? (Let me take a wild guess here, you will just pretend as if you didnt see/understand that part..makes it easier right?) Anyway, the problem Misnight, is that you refuse to acknowledge the fact that everything is not as uncomplicated as you would want to have it. You paint with too wide a brush, and when that leads to faults and errors, you go into denial so fast It'll make your head spin.

Popular approval is not the definition of a democracy. There have been many popular despots in history. Some even used "legal" means to gain power, but you said Germany was a democracy in 1945. This is a desecration of the word IMHO.

You really need to read more carefully in the future. I have never said popular approval was the definition of a democracy. What I did say was that Democracy is based on the idea that elected representatives should rule the country. Now either you do not understand that there is a difference between "popular approval" and "elected representatives" OR you just try to shift the discussion...just a tiny bit, to more suit your purposes. Either way its sad really.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Pongo
If only Hortland was a persuasive as his hero Adolf Hitler. All wrongs against the fatherland could be righted!. All the lies of the subhuman masses and the red fifth columnists could be exposed!
All ememies of the Reich would be crushed!
Germany was not defeated!
Germans did not behave any differently then the allies!
The Swedes did not sell the Germans high grade steel for the gold from Jewish teeth!
Germany would again have the history it wants!


Not the one it created.


If any of you dont read Hortland and Glasses dangerous posts and see the shadow of Goebels propoganda...read more.
And not from Mein Kampf II

I am deeply offended by this. And it is sad really to see that your only contribution to this discussion so far has been this rather disgusting personal attack and a question about my nationality.

I really really think that we should try to avoid namecalling in here, especially since this is not the o club.

I find your attitude and this post completely unacceptable and it is deeply unfair of you to accuse me of the things you accuse me of here.

[midnight Target]

Damn, Midnight why do I always get to play the role of the History teacher or the Law professor when I talk to you? I think "ok, sure, I'll try to explain", and then I sit and write and write (instead of playing AH I might add), and the only kind of response I ever get after posting a 2-page answer to you is some completely irrelevant ranting often combined with a personal attack.

The only thing you "play" with Hortlund are the facts. But I will try to ignore that it was YOU that started the personal attacks and stick to the facts:

1) The SS never raided anything in 1934, that was not part of their job description at the time. The SA might have, but the SS did not.

So your point here is that I attributed the raiding of the Trade Union offices to both the SA and SS and I should have accused only the SA. Sheesh. Lets just agree that they were raided and quit picking of the nits.

2) Hitler became chancellor in Jan 1933, nothing else. In a coalition government. At this point in time, the nazis were no where near alble to do as they pleased.

OK, Hitler became Chancellor because Papin (sp?) and Hindenburg were so worried about the gains made by the communist party in the prior election they needed a strong right winger to deal with the "bolshevist threat". Hindenburg hated Hitler, but agreed to the appointment because he hated the communists even more. It took Hitler only 18 months to "do what he pleased", so saying that he could not "at that point" is like saying a plane can't fly because the engines haven't started. Logically sound but irrelevent.

3) A new Reichstag election was scheduled for early March 1933. Only a few days before the election, on February 27, the Reichstag building was partially destroyed by fire. The Nazis may well have set the blaze, but they blamed the Communists, charging that the Communists were plotting to seize power. Hitler convinced Hindenburg to take strong action against the supposed Communist threat, and the president suspended freedom of speech and the press and other civil liberties.

That is president Hindenburg, and no one else.

True enough.

4) In the March 5 election, the Nazis won 288 seats in the Reichstag. With the support of their conservative nationalist allies, who held 52 seats, the Nazis controlled a majority of the 647 member Reichstag. The Nazi majority was even more substantial, since none of the 81 Communist deputies were allowed to take their seats.

Facts again only thin on the extra flavoring:"In the Reichstag election that followed(March '33), the Nazis banned the Communist and Socialist newspapers. The Nazis also made use of the radio stations to broadcast Nazi propaganda. The Nazi stormtroopers marched along the streets to influence the election. It was surprising that in these conditions less than one half of the electorate (43.9%) voted for Hitler, so that only with the aid of the Nationalists (8%) was Hitler able to obtain a bare majority in the Reichstag." Still a democracy? Perhaps...but getting kinda tenuous don't you think?


5) On March 23, 1933, the Reichstag passed the Enabling Act, which gave dictatorial authority to Hitler's cabinet for four years. Armed with full powers, Hitler moved to eliminate all possible centers of opposition. His policy is known as Gleichschaltung, which translates literally as coordination. In this context, however, it meant more precisely subordination, that is, subordinating all independent institutions to the authority of Hitler and the Nazi Party.

Well, thank you for making my point for me.  The Enabling Act basically said the terms for making laws as set forth by the constituion are no longer valid. Hence the constitution is destroyed. 1 + 1 still makes 2 even in the revisionist world. Without checks and balances Germany immediately became a totalitarian state. I will give you the point that Hitler was arguably a democratically elected dictator, but the methods he used to win his election make that claim hollow and laughable.

and BTW

You consistantly sound like an apologist for Nazi's and when someone points this out you get offended. Now maybe you don't feel this way, maybe you just enjoy a good debate. I hope that is the case.

[Pongo]

Well I can tell from your posts that its not the history forum either.

There was no town in Germany that was more then 4 km from some kind of detenion camp or work camp. How could our LW heros not see that from the air? Flying over them day after day. year after year.

You have set aside rational discussion though you use calm worlds. I have no calm words for such a view point. The german pilots of course are no more guilty of war crimes then allied equivilants. But they are accountable for what they did not do. They did not die to stop Adolf. They died to keep him in power. For that they are accountable. For that they are Nazis. The allied men who died to stop them are heros.

The german pilots were willing to mutiny because they were called cowards by Goring. But not to stop Adolf.

You are a nut.
If you dont like having it pointed out to you, stop being one.

[Hortlund]

Originally posted by Pongo
Well I can tell from your posts that its not the history forum either.

There was no town in Germany that was more then 4 km from some kind of detenion camp or work camp. How could our LW heros not see that from the air? Flying over them day after day. year after year.

You have set aside rational discussion though you use calm worlds. I have no calm words for such a view point. The german pilots of course are no more guilty of war crimes then allied equivilants. But they are accountable for what they did not do. They did not die to stop Adolf. They died to keep him in power. For that they are accountable. For that they are Nazis. The allied men who died to stop them are heros.

The german pilots were willing to mutiny because they were called cowards by Goring. But not to stop Adolf.

You are a nut.
If you dont like having it pointed out to you, stop being one.

Well, apparently refraining from namecalling was too much to ask.

Pongo, apparently you dont know very much about history, yet for some unknown reason you think you do. Please tell me what historical fact I have written in this thread that you disagree with.

Simple fact of the matter is that there is nothing wrong with what I have posted about any historical event here. What might be open to discussion are other, more subtle things such as the definition of a democracy etc. You on the other hand, dive head first into this thread with one of the most absurd statements I have ever heard.

Just to point out exactly how outrageously stupid your "no town in Germany that was more then 4 km from some kind of detenion camp or work camp"-theory is I want you to name the detenion camp or work camp that was within 4 km from Garmisch-Partenkirchen. (In case you have trouble finding it on a map, its in the south of Germany. Find Munich and go South south west towards the Austrian border).

Apparently you have very strong feelings on this subject, and while that can be good, because passion always is, it is somewhat misdirected. Now I dont know exactly where you learned about history in general, and wwii in particular, nor do I know exactly what kind of knowledge you hold. But so far, you have managed to post nothing but insults, personal attacks, obscure theories and outrageously stupid statements. Lets just say that so far, Im not impressed.

Now if you want to keep acting like a 12-yrold, then fine, I cant do much about that. But you would actually do all of us a favour if you would just squelch yourself and read a book or something.

(Oh, and medication might be an option for the "I have no calm words"-issue)

[Wotan]

target

all you do is through out personal attacks. Then  start everyone of your posts with

YOU that started the personal attacks and stick to the facts

Not only are you a hypocrit but you are consistantly wrong. Steve showed you your facts were wrong just like in  every other post you make. Pointing this out this out is hardly a "personal attack". Keep playing victim.

Outside of the SS the lw and u-boat Corp drew to their ranks some of the most ardent National Socialist. So what. This aint ww2 its AH. The guy who originally started this thread actual went out of his way to make a disclaimer that hes not a nazi lover because he likes 109s and flies lw in this game. Why he would feel it necessary to do so I have no idea. Maybe he shares the same "guilt" as target. As much as a Nazi Rudel was he was a warrior and I have a certain amount of respect for that.

My neighbor does civil war re-enactments. That doesn't mean hes glorifing slave owning. Ofcouse target would assume so.

[midnight Target]

You go right ahead Wotan.

"Tell a big enough lie enough times and the people will believe it."

I think one of your heroes said that.