Author Topic: ATI Radeon 9700 (Read 1137 times)

Skuzzy · « **Reply #30 on:** July 29, 2002, 02:24:58 PM »

Hehe,..posting the same time LePaul.

The 9700 is really way overkill and the NV30 will be too. There are only 2 game titles that can even make these boards breathe hard,...UT2003 and DoomIII.
And the 9700 at 1600x1200x32 with full FSAA and anisotrophic filtering enabled still manages to get above 60 FPS in UT2003. I figure DoomIII will make it break a sweat, but not much of one.

The real trick with these cards are games that make use of hardware T&L. In the past, the T&L cards were pretty slow, but not anymore. Games that do not use hardware T&L will not see the performance gains versus games that use it.

I just cannot imagine what the R300 will do when they throw in the DDRII ram, then migrate to .13u process. I mean,..geez!

The age of video cards holding back the CPU's are officially over with and a new realm has been ushered in. WOOHOO!

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #31 on:** July 29, 2002, 02:54:54 PM »

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Originally posted by Skuzzy
An ATI8500. Hehe,..get ready to play catch up Deja .

The current 3DMArk score for the 9700 in a 3Ghz P4 (overclocked I assume) is 15,479. I figre to get really close to that, if not beat it, when I am done.

Just out of curiousity... what do you get with your 8500 on that box? I have a 4600 and am getting just a hair under 12,000 right now.

AKDejaVu

Shiva · « **Reply #32 on:** July 29, 2002, 03:04:06 PM »

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I see ATI having a problem with the 9700. It is going to take one screaming CPU to push the card and, and at least a 4X AGP bus. I can see guys buying it and putting it in a 1GHz/AGP 2X system and complaining about the lack of performance. ATI would do well to state a CPU speed that would push the card, or at least keep it busy.

The whole principle of incremental upgrade is that the next component you buy is more than the rest of your system can fill. You buy a gonzo videocard that your CPU can't stretch. Then you buy the new mobo and CPU to stretch the videocard. Then you buy more memory, or bigger hard drives, or a larger monitor, and the loop keeps going around and around, ratcheting your system to higher and higher performance. The individual upgrades are cheaper than jacking up the hood ornament and sliding a new car underneath.

streakeagle · « **Reply #33 on:** July 29, 2002, 04:56:41 PM »

On the other hand, I love my "antique" P3 and Voodoo 5. I am more likely to build a whole new state of the art machine instead of always lagging far behind the leading edge as the incremental approach tend to do.

Though I will only buy somewhat mature technology that has thorough data on reliability and performance rather than follow the market hype of the absolute newest hardware besides the price advantages of waiting awhile after a new release.

If I had to build a machine right now... I would probably go with the P4 (AMD has reached the limit with the Athlon, P4 is going to keep getting faster for awhile, though AMD is clearly the more cost effective) and the Radeon 8500 (don't care for NVidia image quality at all). But I don't have the money to build right now and wouldn't if I did have the money. Next generation hardware should be just around the corner and the future of XP should be pretty firm within a few months (final service packs, etc.). I am hoping AMD jumps ahead of the P4 and still has a better price.

Skuzzy · « **Reply #34 on:** July 30, 2002, 01:50:33 PM »

Ahhh,..the 8500 cannot even compete with the 4600 NVidia Deja, but I get just over 9,000 3DMarks on the box.

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #35 on:** July 30, 2002, 01:55:33 PM »

Was getting just under 7900 with the Radeon 8500 in a 2GHz box. Was wondering how big of a difference the CPU/FSB would make.

AKDejaVu

Skuzzy · « **Reply #36 on:** July 30, 2002, 03:35:52 PM »

I think most of it is the latest drivers for the 8500. They have definately improved the performance, and not just in the benchies. I have noted quite a bit of difference in the games I play. Much more fluid/smoother than before and the FPS is up as well. Maya runs much better as well.

Course,..the faster CPU/bus couldn't hurt. I think once you get past about 1.5Ghz CPU, the 8500 starts being a bottleneck,..depending on the game.

bloom25 · « **Reply #37 on:** July 31, 2002, 05:18:10 PM »

There sure is a lot of hype about this card floating around the internet, I hope it lives up to it. Hopefully ATI can captialize on the market window that nVidia has left for them. NV30 is probably 3 to 4 months off yet, and there's no real confirmation that it will be able to exceed the R300s performance.

streakeagle, you might want to wait a couple months before you pronounce the Athlon dead.

There's still a whole new core revision to be released later this year, and even the current Throughbred has been reworked and is running at 2.13 GHz right now (2800+ rating). (The 2200+ runs at 1.8 GHz.) There's no official word on when to expect to see them available though...

Skuzzy · « **Reply #38 on:** August 01, 2002, 10:12:18 AM »

You are correct bloom. There has been a bunch of talk about the 9700 product. I can get past that, but what I find more interesting is the lack of response from NVidia.
In the fact of thier stock dropping from $70/share to $11/share, one would think they would say something positive about the NV30 versus the 9700.
I find this perplexing. The only thing they have been saying centers around some screen shots that were not rendered by the NV30, but claiming this is what the NV30 will be able to do in real time. The video community, at large, already knows the shots are not being done by a NV30.
Then the hype about the 1024 shader instruction cache, which turns out to be only 256 instructions, which is proprietary to NVidia as DX9 calls for something less.

No news from NVidia whether or not the NV30 will have a 256bit data path. They have said they think a 256bit path is a waste, which leads one to believe the NV30 will only be a 128bit path.

I have been watching both camps and one of two things come to mind on what is happening.
1) NVidia is very confident about the NV30 and is keeping its cards to its vest until they are ready to show it. This would say they know they are going to beat the R300. They should beat it, but the margin they can beat it by is the question.
2) ATI just completely sucker punched NVidia and NVidia is concerned they are not going to outperform the R300 or will only be on par with the R300's performance.

Number one has some good grounds. NVidia is the market leader in terms of percentage of medium to high end cards in systems. ATI is still playing catch-up here, and if the 9700 does not do well, they will have gained nothing on NVidia, except for a lot of nice marketing. This does not neccessarily translate to more dollars for ATI.
Overall, NVidia may be banking on the fact that they are the leader and have a strong following. Whether or not they are the fastest on the block may not hurt them in the short term and ATI being the fastest kid on the block may not help them.

All speculation until the NV30 is real and the 9700 is shipping, but still, the reactions in the marketplace are interesting to note.

Pongo · « **Reply #39 on:** August 01, 2002, 10:49:09 AM »

Video card brand loyalty is a very very fickle thing. Nvidia does not want to even be in a race and they definalty are now.

Skuzzy · « **Reply #40 on:** August 01, 2002, 11:50:12 AM »

Well, got some official news from NVidia abou the NV30 via a conference call by the CEO to the investor community.

bloom and Deja, you will find this interesting. NVidia has not taped out the NV30!

Now, consider they are moving to a .13u process, which thier FAB house (TSMC) is having trouble with.

You want to have some fun speculating on when it might actually ship? I think it is later than even I originally had speculated. I think it will be a miracle if they get it out during the month of December. I am leaning towards late January, early February.

What do you think?

Turbot · « **Reply #41 on:** August 01, 2002, 01:50:31 PM »

Ah good news for us bargain shoppers who buy the year old technology as well. Now I am waiting on free falling geforce4 prices

AKDejaVu · « **Reply #42 on:** August 01, 2002, 02:35:42 PM »

Quote

Originally posted by Skuzzy
Well, got some official news from NVidia abou the NV30 via a conference call by the CEO to the investor community.

bloom and Deja, you will find this interesting. NVidia has not taped out the NV30!

Now, consider they are moving to a .13u process, which thier FAB house (TSMC) is having trouble with.

You want to have some fun speculating on when it might actually ship? I think it is later than even I originally had speculated. I think it will be a miracle if they get it out during the month of December. I am leaning towards late January, early February.

What do you think?

Not taped out yet? Figure from the time you tape something out, you have to generate masks for each layer. That's about 8 masks to build the transistors and 2 masks per metal stack. The masks can be generated at a decent rate, but they have to then be checked and qualified. That is not fast at all.

I have no idea what their .13u process is, but enough people have experience with it that their stepper vendors ought to be able to help them out.

Once all that begins... figure about 6-12 weeks until the first processor is made and tested... barring incidents.

I'd just hate to combine a new tapeout with a new process. Troubleshooting problems becomes considerably more difficult.

AKDjeaVu

Skuzzy · « **Reply #43 on:** August 01, 2002, 03:32:02 PM »

Ya,...you and I are of the same mindset Deja. The problems TSMC is having is what caused ATI to go with .15u for the R300 so they could get it out before the holiday shopping season.

There are not many short cuts NVidia can take to speed the process without risking a large scale diaster. About the only short-cut I see is not fiddling with the layout and taking a chance it is right out of the software design. Big gamble.
I can't see them doing that. I mean, they are dealing with a 100+M transistor count. You cannot fiddle with the qual times on something like this.

The CEO was pressed to when the part would be taped out and all he would say (he said it twice) was, "We expect to be wrapping it up soon.".

Oh,..he also blamed Microsoft and Intel for NVidia's $150M shortfall in thier earnings.

He seemed to be focused on the low-end line pulling them through these "tough times."

Gunthr · « **Reply #44 on:** August 01, 2002, 04:38:03 PM »

I've got my cash ready to go as soon as this card hits the streets.

I'm just wondering what kind of performance I could expect from an AMD xp chip at 1.4 ghtz and 512 mb PC21OO on a Shuttle AK31a?