The Mighty Joe "Otto" Pilot

[Minotaur]

Fellow Simulator Aviations;

Grovel before Joe, all ye "PahtuiDweebs"!    

Here I go again, relax while I rant and rave. I feel my humor now is so dry that it might be "FreezeDried", bear with.  

My post is concerning the AutoTrim feature, realizing this is indeed still "Beta".  I would like to make a piont.


Plain and simple, Otto is just TOO good!
                                   

I have been doing alot of testing.  I have be trying to get my joystick to work for trim.  What ever I do, the trim controls have lots of steps and move very slowly.  Otto can move them very quickly.  

I also watch how Otto trims out, so that I might learn how to do it also.  Hopefully in the next decade I can increase my K/D ratio.  (Not likely I know)

I have been observing how Otto operates, try this test.  I did this test in a P-51.

At 5k, level out and hit AutoLevel.  When the trim indicators stabilize you will be close to top speed.  

Pull hard into 90 degree verticle climb, hit AutoAngle.  When the trim indicators reach their maximum movement, just before you stall, you will be at minimum speed.  

Rotate downward to a 90 degree verticle dive, hit AutoAngle.  After 3-5 secs hit AutoAngle again, releasing AutoAngle.

Just about the time you see the little wooly creatures, hit AutoLevel.  You will black out for a few seconds and then level out right at the ground.  I took a screen shot to prove this, but it came out all black for some reason.

That 109G chasing you just augered!  Ynuck-Ynuck    

Get yourself into a really bad spin?  Hit AutoSomething.  

AutoClimb can be a killer if used wrong. (The Good, The Good, and The DeadDweeb)  I hereby rename this one "AutoSmackGroundHard".  

For landing, this is an even better one.  Piont the nose right at the end of the runway, hit AutoAngle. Drop flaps, cut throttle etc etc etc...  DON'T LOWER GEAR.  Manually correct to the glideslope occasionally, then re-hit AutoAngle. Adjust your speed so you will be at 100-120 knots when you munchdown.  Just before munchdown, release AutoAngle and set her down easy.

You just stopped on Dime, BABY!  Now, lower your gear and taxi on up to the hanger like a good Joe "SchmuckDweeb" Pilot. (Minotaur roughly tranlates to SchmuckDweeb)

Watch how Otto takes off, he does a fair job.

Hopefully I got my piont across, as silly as I might have sounded.

BTW the Clouds really look AWESOME!    Keep up the excellent efforts, well done.

Mino <--- I hit my head and I woke up here

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-10-1999).]

[aircat]

well unless I can come up with 200 bucks for flight training trim equipment, I like the ability to auot trim... its much easier in a real plain to trim for certain tasks. one: you dont have 104 (or more depending on key board) in a area approx 20" buy 6" you have them spread out and most you can tell which is which by feel. two: also you can just move the controls for a spacific (sp?) point. instead of waiting for the trim key to SLOOOOOOOOOWWWWWLLLLLLYYYYY move one way or the other... there is less chance of moving wrong control or moving it in the wrong way... I put myslef in bad spots hitting the wrong key cause I didnt have time in combat to look over my keyboard and take time to verify I had the right key. personaly I think it would be great if MS or TM or CH made a sub 100 dollar trim control setup. make things more fun and realistic.

[Minotaur]

Aircat;

I like and much enjoy the Otto Pilot myself.

However; I am using it for my BFM and ACM, with outstanding results.  It just works so good and much to excessive.

Another note, try those same manuvers that I described above, without Otto.  

THEY CAN'T BE DONE.

Mino <-- Head is all better now

[This message has been edited by Minotaur (edited 11-10-1999).]

[fats]

Haha!

What some people will do to get to jedi level 2 in 1 day, but never reach the jedi level 10 cause of it. In other words I belive you will be out flown manually.


//fats

[Minotaur]

Fats;

As always I enjoy your posts!  

Please understand this, for some of us this is hard to grasp and the learning curve is long.  I watch you, others, and even Otto to see how it is done.  Luckily we fly for the same side enough, so I can watch a good pilot, not just be the victim of one.  

I know that you get many kills per sortie, and I only get one --> my own death. Step onto my golf course, and you might want watch me and see how it is done.  
   
Otto is very good job at what Otto does.  IMHO Otto is just TOO GOOD.  Do the tests I prescribe and let me know your thoughts.

I make no reference to any persons flying ability or how they will or might perform in combat.

Mino

[fats]

Minotaur,

It's possible to do tail slides and such in AH now. There's no need to use OttoPilot for it. As far as I know, tail slide is pretty similar to your tests first part: go into pure vertical climb and hold it there untill you start falling backwards! If you were able to hold the plain straight you can pick up quite speed, of course it's easier if you turn off engine at some point before 0 ias. Now kick the rudder and the plane will yaw into the opposite direction compared to travelling forward.

I don't quite 'get it' which part of your test is un-doable manually.


//fats

[Fester']

>>I don't quite 'get it' which part of your test is un-doable manually<<

I think what Minotaur is referring to is the ability of autopilot to instantly recover the aircraft when in bad situations.

ie a bad spin... "TRIM" should not be able to recover you from a spin, especially auto trim.

or pointed straight down at a high rate of speed.  a manual pull out ubder the conditions Mino described would result in an auger as you blacked out and the plane stopped receiving your control input

however hit autolevel and the plane will level itself out, regardless of g forces while you snooze peacefully in the cockpit.

Those were his main points as I saw them, and they seem to be pretty valid to me.

Fester, out

[Minotaur]

Fester;

Thanks, you see my position.

Fats;

Quote: "THEY CAN'T BE DONE" :End Quote

This should have probably been written --> "THEY CAN'T BE DONE WITH THE SPEED THEY ARE ACCOMPLISHED NOR THE PRECISION OF THE MANUVERS"

I am not disputing the AH FM  --> If a Real Pilot in a Real Plane could do it --> The Manual Pilot in an AH Plane can do it.  (Well Done Guys   )

Quote: "I don't quite 'get it' which part of your test is un-doable manually." :End Quote

Fats, I wonder if you have tried my test?  Run the test as I described using Otto, push the plane PAST the edges of its envelope.  Now fly the plane, can you exceed the envelope in the same fashion?  

Otto is pulling VERY high g's (I suspect over 9) at the bottom of the dive.  Otto trims the climb or dive perfectly.  Your zoom just goes on forever while you think about the opposite sex.  Otto counters any spin, except when plane parts are missing.

   Trim has a HUGE effect on AH plane performance.  

Manual moves one trim axis at a time, and it moves SLOWLY.  Otto moves all three trim axis simultaneously and and they move RAPIDLY.  

Otto in Falcon 3.0 was and ACE of ACES, is that Otto related to this Otto?  Otto Jr.?(Low Blow I know, flame me for this one   )

Try this test:

Fly your plane to a very high altitude.  Dive down, attain an extremely high speed.  A speed where the joystick controls quit working.  Using Manual, adjust trim.  You can still reasonably control the airplane.

Would a real aircraft still be controlable in this fashion?

Trim is NOT really effected by compression, plane type, altitude or pilot condition (wounded black/red etc).  It works no matter what.

I suspect OTTO (or trim) works so well at HIGH speed, because it was designed to work well at SLOW speed.  You can end up being in a fantasy / unrealistic mode of flying.  Brand A has a "AutoPilot will not engage" function.

An example, of how I might take advantage of this in combat for a P-51 dive bomb run:

I set AutoAngle just past my target, using a WEP dive and a very steep dive angle.  At the proper altitude (using Zoom of course),  I pickle.  I now am doing +/- 600 knots, deep into compression.  The plane flies like a falling rock would fly.  I hit AutoLevel, pull my 10g's for 4 seconds, and level out on the deck.  

I have hit my target and escaped, with NO consequences to flying like a total "ScmuckDweeb".  I have safely ignored how the plane could, would or should fly, bypassing a WONDERFUL FM.  

Am I missing something?  Is this still BETA?

Mino

[fats]

--- Fester: ---
Mino described would result in an auger as you blacked out and the plane stopped receiving your control input
--- end ---

Nope, you can control the plane while still in black/red out just like Otto. Pull more Gs, roll, yaw what ever you like. Otto can level the plane while blacked out, but I would call that a disadvantage rather than advantage.


//fats

[Azrael]

Otto-Pilot works just too fast. You can point down a B-17 vertical, gaining speed up to a point where the plane is in no way controllable anymore, countdown until you reach 1000ft, hit x, get a black screen and voila - you're in level flight.
Besides that, the otto effect is even too strong in the transition from level trim to speed trim. Try this with a B-17, .speed 135, and you get the stall horn. No pilot would even use the elevator to pull up a B-17 that quick, and the possibility that the elevator trim could be applied that quick seems unlikely.

But I think this is one of the 'beta' features that will eventually be resolved.

Az

------------------
Azrael
XO 487th BG (Heavy)
'The Gentlemen from Hell'

[fats]

--- Minotaur: ---
Trim is NOT really effected by compression, plane type, altitude or pilot condition (wounded black/red etc). It works no matter what.
--- end ---

There are at least two conditions, which in AH appear the same, that result in ineffective control surface movement.

1.) The control surfaces are no longer surrounded sufficiently by the airflow, the joystick still moves all over the place and so do the control surfaces in real plane probably, but the controls have zero effect.

2.) Heavy stick forces. Control surfaces don't move but the joystick still moves easily all over the place in AH, where as in real a/c it wouldn't.

Some planes' ineffective control surfaces in a high speed dive is the results of '1.)' and others '2.)'. Now if the reason for moving the joystick around does seemingly nothing is '2.)' the trim will probably be able to over come this. The trim tabs are located at the edge of the control surface and thus get more leverage and can over come the forces ( we need para w/ his napkin to draw this! ).

As for the speed of the auto trim, it's perhaps something to adjust. Often puts me in a red out if I hit auto level from a climb.


//fats

[Minotaur]

More on trim;

I am NOT a Pilot in Real Life.  Hopefully their are some knowledgable ones to answer my questions.

My understanding or mis-understanding of trim is this:

A trim surface (TS) is a much smaller control surface that is attached to a main control surface (MCS).  IE: A trim tab attached to the elevator.

TS work in opposition to the MCS, exerting a counter force to the MCS. IE: The TS exerts force onto the MCS, deflecting the MCS in the opposite direction.

TS are effective because they are placed very near the trailing edge of the MCS.  IE:  A small TS can exert a large force through leverage.

TS are effected by the airstream and react opposite to the airstream.  This force is proportional to the airspeed, altitude, size, position on the MCS and deflection of the TS. IE: More air molecules striking TS, more force, more effect.

TS are useful in the movement of unpowered MCS.  IE: No hydrualic boost to the MCS force applied by the pilot.

When the airplane is trimmed the pilot has to maintain NO pressure on the stick.  IE: TS is putting force on the MCS.

When the airplane is untrimmed,  the pilot MUST maintain pressure on the stick.  IE: Pilot is putting force on the MCS.

Either way, the same amount of actual force is exerted to the MCS.  IE: Pilot exerted force = TS exerted force.

1) Why does a airplane fly more efficiently trimmed by the TS?

2) Can the TS effect MCS deflection if the pilot is simply not strong enough to do so?

3) Do TS compress at the same time as the MCS, reducing their effect?

Mino

[Minotaur]

Fats;

Thanks for you reply.

More questions:

1) Compression is the result of an air foil becoming non-operation because of supersonic air, passing over one of its surfaces?  

2) Hard Air is when the pilot can no longer apply leveraged force to effect a control surface deflection?  (The stick is in concrete)

3) The two effects are modeled the same in Sim's, because the Joystick cannot replicate either effect?

Mino

[Trips]

Minotaur asks:

 

Fly your plane to a very high altitude. Dive down, attain an extremely high speed. A speed where the joystick controls quit working. Using Manual, adjust trim. You can still reasonably control the airplane.

Would a real aircraft still be controlable in this fashion?

Yes it would.